Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

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Trevorpen
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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by Trevorpen » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:38 am

Cornwall is not and has never been a country. It doesn't have an elected parliament, no judiciary, no leader, no defence, no laws which aren't under English, British or European law. These are just a few examples why Cornwall isn't a country.
Yes It's a region of England with its own, unique, Celtic culture, like West Devon.
Enjoy the day in our beautiful county, hope the sun shines for you. :lol:

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P_Trembath
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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by P_Trembath » Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:56 pm

Very limited definition of a country there Trevorpen, BUT, in the past, Cornwall was a Kingdom in its own right. It, therefore had its own "parliament", its own "judiciary", its own leader, its own defense, its own laws. These are just a few examples of why Cornwall was a Country in the past.

Indecently, there are countries today that do not have all those things you list, but are still recognised as Countries, but don't let that spoil your ignorance. ;)
Everyone, Cornish or otherwise, has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small; no one is too old or too young to do something.

Trevorpen
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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by Trevorpen » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:45 pm

I must admit I've never heard of a King of Cornwall or Cornwall ever being a Kingdom. Can you give me some info?
Of course there was a King of Mercia and Wessex, but not all historians can agree on this, they were in fact popularised by writers at the time.
Incidentally I just gave a few examples of what constitutes a country, I didn't mention they were essential parts of a country. BUT Cornwall has none of those examples.

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P_Trembath
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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by P_Trembath » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:09 pm

Trevorpen wrote:I must admit I've never heard of a King of Cornwall or Cornwall ever being a Kingdom. Can you give me some info?
Of course there was a King of Mercia and Wessex, but not all historians can agree on this, they were in fact popularised by writers at the time.
There is a lot of info on the 'net about them, and also on this very site:-
language-culture/who-was-the-greatest-k ... t6658.html

Here are a couple of sources from the 'net:-

http://www.cornwallinformation.co.uk/ne ... ll-unique/

http://www.cornwalls.co.uk/history/ancient/

There will always be disagreements from different historians as to what is, or is not, true regarding this, because very little was written down, and a lot that was has now been lost, (how it was "lost" and why, is also something that could be debated at great length) Some of the Names of the Cornish Kings, are conjecture, but that they existed is undisputed fact.

As for why you have never heard of them..............another long debate ensues.
Trevorpen wrote: Incidentally I just gave a few examples of what constitutes a country, I didn't mention they were essential parts of a country. BUT Cornwall has none of those examples.
No, what you gave are not what constitutes a country, but what (some/most?) countries have. Indecently, it could, quite legitimately, be argued that Cornwall does have it's own laws, and even it's own judiciary, not currently used, but still very much in existence. It can also be argued that Cornwall has it's own parliament, one that has not been convened for rather a long time, but still legally in existence.
Everyone, Cornish or otherwise, has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small; no one is too old or too young to do something.

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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by Trevorpen » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:28 am

Interesting stuff, P_T, but all very ancient and verging on mythological.
You are going back to a time of many kingdoms across the whole of England.
Finally there are no unique laws to Cornwall, no judiciary and no parliament. The nearest in the ancient stannary courts and parliament which solely related to mining matters in Cornwall and Devon.
I was hoping you were going to point me in the direction of ancient king burial chambers or an ancient parliament building!
Thanks for the info anyway.

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P_Trembath
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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by P_Trembath » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:46 am

You said Cornwall "has never been a country".

Never, implies just that, Never.

From the sketchy definition you provided as to what defines a country, I have shown you that it, in fact, was a country in recorded history. I did point out that written evidence is in short supply, for various reasons, but it does exist, and is not refuted by historians. I will give you that some of the "listed" Kings of Cornwall are speculative, but the evidence for others is clear.

You now try to avoid this by claiming that it is "very ancient and verging on mythological"? You were the one who claimed "never".

During the end of the reigns of the Cornish Kings, there were very few kingdoms across "England", as they had been subsumed into the one English kingdom, or the Viking one in the North.

Once again, you said "never", you were wrong, please don't try moving the goal posts.

Anyway, as I said before, I prefer to use the word Nation. The Cornish are a Nation, and that is undeniable. :D
Everyone, Cornish or otherwise, has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small; no one is too old or too young to do something.

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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by Trevorpen » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:20 am

Cornwall is not a nation, for sure some of the Cornish national brigade would like to think so, but they are very much a minority with a minority point of view.
Trouble is with your points is that there are no hard facts. Like many parts of England these were perhaps leaders who regarded themselves as kings, but the evidence is at best patchy and only beliefs which may or may not be fact.
Trouble is you are scratching around in such a distant time that is can never be conclusively proved.
Who knows we are all related to kings across England! :lol:

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P_Trembath
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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by P_Trembath » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:38 am

The OED definition of a Nation is:- "A large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory."

Therefore, it is clear that as the Cornish are united by a common descent, united by a common history, united by a common culture, united by a common language (although not commonly used except in place and family names), and generally inhabit the territory that is known as Cornwall, the only thing that you could argue against is the "large body of people". I would argue that the Cornish are large enough to qualify. The Cornish are a NATION!

So, sorry, you're wrong again.
Everyone, Cornish or otherwise, has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small; no one is too old or too young to do something.

Trevorpen
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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by Trevorpen » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:06 pm

So on your definition of a nation we have many in England, besides Cornwall. Yorkshire, Lancashire, Dorset, Devon, Somerset - the list goes on and on!
Perhaps we are a united nation known as England, plus of course our neighbours in Scotland and Wales.

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P_Trembath
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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by P_Trembath » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:01 pm

No, not my definition, but the Oxford English Dictionary's definition. And, No Yorkshire, Lancashire, Dorset, Devon, Somerset, and your endless list, do not constitute Nations under such definition. I know of no separate language for any of them to start with, Their cultures are English, as opposed to the Celtic culture of Cornwall that even you admit, Their histories are all part of the "English" history, etc, etc.

Yes, we all live in a, so called, United Kingdom, a multi national state, but as for being a united multi national state, I am not so sure, in fact, I know that it is not. You may wish it to be, but the inherent inequalities built into it, mean that it will never be fully united, unless those inequalities are removed. I fear that this will never happen whilst people, like yourself, keep reinforcing the "united Nation" myth, now that is a real myth.
Everyone, Cornish or otherwise, has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small; no one is too old or too young to do something.

Trevorpen
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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by Trevorpen » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:41 pm

Well you have your thoughts and I have mine.
I would dispute your idea of language, lots of areas of England have sayings/ phrases unique to that area.
Cornish was never a written language and spoken mainly by the peasantry. Today if there's not a word, a Welsh word is used.
Great to learn it if you so wish, but it will never become a main language and people will hate the idea of it being imposed in schools for instance. A friend of ours son had to study it a school and the whole class said it was a pointless waste of time.

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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by Carvath » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:36 pm

Trevorpen, those phrases and sayings for places like Yorkshire, Lancashire, Dorset, Devon, Somerset, etc are all variants of English, some just accents. They are not a completely different language like Celtic, Kernewek Cornish. Look how different the majority of our place names are, derived from Kernowek.

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P_Trembath
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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by P_Trembath » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:31 am

Trevorpen wrote:Well you have your thoughts and I have mine.
Actually, it's the thoughts of the compilers of the Oxford English Dictionary, I merely use the words.
Trevorpen wrote:I would dispute your idea of language, lots of areas of England have sayings/ phrases unique to that area.
Lots of areas of England have sayings/phrases unique to that area, BUT those sayings/phrases are ALL in the same language, English. None of those areas, to my knowledge, have a separate language of their own, a language that is common only to them.

Trevorpen wrote:Cornish was never a written language and spoken mainly by the peasantry.
There are quite a few instances of written Cornish, and there were probably quite a few more that were lost during the reformation, when the local centers of learning were destroyed during the dissolution of the monasteries. And please, just what is your point regarding "the peasantry"? Are you suggesting that the language has no worth because those who spoke it were looked on as having no worth? Trevorpen, the peasants ARE the people, the nation, it is their language, history, customs, that MAKE a nation.
Trevorpen wrote:Today if there's not a word, a Welsh word is used.
Anyone who uses this argument to deride the Cornish language, has never once looked at any other language in the world (with the exception of "official" French). ALL languages borrow words from other languages, look at English, a good 50% or more of the common words that we rely on for ordinary communication are borrowed, borrowed from Latin, Greek, French, various Indian languages, Chinese, etc, even Ancient British. At least Cornish is attempting to keep true to it's roots.
Trevorpen wrote:Great to learn it if you so wish, but it will never become a main language.....
With the move of English to become the basis of the "common tongue" for the world, with the influence of American media, and to some extent Australian media as well, coupled with being physically right "next door" to England, then it would be surprising if it ever did become our "main" language, but it stands a good chance of becoming our "second" language, one that is used on a regular basis, if that is what the people want.

Trevorpen wrote:......and people will hate the idea of it being imposed in schools for instance. A friend of ours son had to study it a school and the whole class said it was a pointless waste of time.
There are many things that people hate having "imposed" on them. Children hate many of the things "imposed" on them at school, their parents hate different things that are "imposed" on their children at school. That which children consider a "waste of time" at school, often turn out to have been rather useful in later life, and the reverse is also often true.

The real question is, why do you so wish to deny the existence of the Cornish Nation?
Everyone, Cornish or otherwise, has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small; no one is too old or too young to do something.

Trevorpen
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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by Trevorpen » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:32 pm

There is not a nation called Cornwall.
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/c ... _world.htm

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P_Trembath
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Re: Cornwall's National St Piran Flag - Appearing Near You?

Post by P_Trembath » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:11 pm

That is a list of "Country's", not a list of Nations. Please stop attempting to compere apples with pears.

As it says, it lists 195 independent sovereign states, 60 dependent areas, and 5 disputed territories.

It is also interesting to note from your link, that apparently England does not exist, nor does Scotland or Wales.

Also from the same site, "National Flags of Europe" here:- http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/f ... europe.htm England does not even have a flag.

Conclusion, You can not be English, as it does not exist.
Everyone, Cornish or otherwise, has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small; no one is too old or too young to do something.

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