Some thoughts about the Process

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:20 pm


Branvras said:
Some people insist that pre-occlusion be shown in writing. But if you write it in every place where you would predict that it occurs, it violates the first rule of KS - that only attested spellings may be used.

This is incorrect. The "guiding principle" to which you refer is:

• The spelling system must be based on attested traditional orthographic forms.

This is not the same thing as saying "only attested spellings may be used".

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Post by FlammNew » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:48 pm

I presume you mean that in the same sense that Kemmyn's spelling system is based on attested forms but doesn't only use them?

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Post by Bardh » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:58 pm


The Corns will be able to claim their second chance to have a living language if opposition to resolving the problem is as low-key as possible. Otherwise that rare window of opportunity will close forever.


Miquel Strubell
Professor of Languages and Cultures Studies of Open University of Catalonia





This is unnecessarily pessimistic. We've already made our claim, and started to implement it as well. The Authenticists of themselves haven't the power to close that window of opportunity. They're an irrelevance. Neither have their handlers. Eventually, they'll lose interest and start concentrating on their careers again.

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Post by Morvran » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:34 pm

Here are my thoughts on the Process.

It is and has been a sham from beginning to end -- I have always said so.

At Tremogh I we came expecting a debate, but all debate was stifled, very skillfully I have to admit. Whose idea was that?? Who set the format for the day??

At Tremogh II exactly the same pattern was repeated. With Ken and Nicholas and Bernard and Rod all there together, there was a wonderful opportunity for us and them to question each position, explore their weaknesses, assess the mood of the 'public' -- to debate for God's sake!

I pointed all of this out to Jenifer by letter before the day. I explained carefully why the small groups were a complete waste of everyone's time -- not appropriate in this context. My suggestions were helpful and positive, and I have had some experience of decision-making in large groups. I was of course ignored, even though others wrote in to endorse my proposals.

I was told privately that, "we won't be treated like sheep again", but they went through the motions just the same with barely a "baa!" (nor even a "brev!" ).

First we're amused (by the stand-up acts they've booked);

Then we're confused (by being split into groups so that no overall consensus can be reached);

And finally we're abused (by being told that we've all voted for whatever it is they've decided is 'good for us' -- good for them morelike, whoever exactly they are).

This is why I am not going this time. I'm disgusted by the way we've been treated (all factions!) And I'm equally disgusted by all you sheep who let it happen!

Why I wonder have the language group reps on the Partnership agreed to this farce, year after year after year? I can only guess that some desk-wallah wispered in their ears that it would all be fixed to go their way. But it can't go everyone's way, so someone's going to find themselves buggered come Sunday. It could be us, it could be them, or it could perhaps be everyone if the decision is somehow avoided yet again.

But whichever way it goes it will be an appalling mess which will simply sow the seeds for further trouble.

Why? Because you can't get resolution without first allowing everyone to vent their spleen, this is basic psychology. Unfortunatly preventing open public debate has just allowed everyone to dig in further into their entrenched positions and become more and more frustrated. Frustration which they then vent on the 'other side'.

I would suggest that those who go on Sunday take over the procedings and hold a proper debate. Otherwise the various organisations should arrange a full public debate, or perhaps a series of spaced debates over the coming few months.

To succeed they will need to be OPEN, PUBLIC and INFORMED (i.e. with experts invited as appropriate, reliable figures available etc). The MINIMUM requirement for resolution is that EVERYONE CAN HAVE THEIR SAY (because most people won't listen to anyone else's position until after they've had their own shout). That will need an exceptional chairman, but I don't doubt that given the need one could be found.

If anyone were to oppose such a debate we would do well to ask what part of the truth they feared.

----

(And I'd still like to know who cooked up this whole Tremogh charade in the first place).


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Post by Evertype » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:52 pm


FlammNew said:
I presume you mean that in the same sense that Kemmyn's spelling system is based on attested forms but doesn't only use them?

You presume wrongly, but I shall not rehearse the indictments against George's orthographic choices here.

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Post by Evertype » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:41 pm


morvran said:
Here are my thoughts on the Process. It is and has been a sham from beginning to end -- I have always said so.

Perhaps that is because you decided you didn't want a Process. You decided that you didn't want spelling reform, and you decided that anyone who did was beneath your contempt.


At Tremogh I we came expecting a debate, but all debate was stifled, very skillfully I have to admit. Whose idea was that?? Who set the format for the day??

I don't recall any details of Tremough I -- I was not there, so I can't respond to this.


At Tremogh II exactly the same pattern was repeated. With Ken and Nicholas and Bernard and Rod all there together, there was a wonderful opportunity for us and them to question each position, explore their weaknesses, assess the mood of the 'public' -- to debate for God's sake!

Debate what? The same stuff we debated with you on CornishOrthography the previous year? I was not able to be at Tremough II, though I heard reports. Since there was no consensus to choose UC, RLC, KK, or UCR, one option was to have external experts review the arguments about all of those, and decide whether any of them could in fact be suitable, or if a Fifth Form should "evolve" (the Partnership used the word "evolution" ). As an expert in writing systems and orthographies, I can say that this makes sense to me. Evaluate what is on offer, and if none of those passes muster, move on.

(As it happens, users of UC, RLC, and UCR did some evaluation of their own and came to the conclusion that their own collective needs would be better met by a Fifth Form. We then developed one, following robust linguistic principles.)


I pointed all of this out to Jenifer

Her name is Jenefer.
by letter before the day. I explained carefully why the small groups were a complete waste of everyone's time -- not appropriate in this context. My suggestions were helpful and positive, and I have had some experience of decision-making in large groups. I was of course ignored, even though others wrote in to endorse my proposals.

Were you "of course" ignored? Why? And what experience have you had of decision-making in large groups? (I have had a 15 years of experience in multinational technical committee negotiation; I don't find anything wrong with building consensus in small, ad-hoc groups.)


I was told privately

By whom? You mentioned Jenefer, but I doubt she would have said such a thing to you.
that, "we won't be treated like sheep again", but they went through the motions just the same with barely a "baa!" (nor even a "brev!").

Vague metaphor again?


First we're amused (by the stand-up acts they've booked);

Whatever.


Then we're confused (by being split into groups so that no overall consensus can be reached);

What do you want? A public free-for-all? Or do you want a formal group of actual experts chosen to consult on the matter of spelling reform?

It remains my view that only spelling reform -- moving from UC, RLC, KK, and UCR to a new form -- is the way forward. None of the other orthographies have attracted consensus.


And finally we're abused (by being told that we've all voted for whatever it is they've decided is 'good for us' -- good for them morelike, whoever exactly they are).

The Commissioners have been engaged to decide for the Cornish Revival because the Cornish Revival cannot decide on its own. Now please note that UC, RLC, and UCR users did get together and draft a compromise way forward, egged on by the challenge of this Process. The KK community REFUSED to do this, which is their own gross FAILURE. You CANNOT fault the Commissioners for WHATEVER decision they make, because you FAILED to engage with the Process any further than agreeing to let KK be judged alongside other orthographies. You felt, I am sure, that it would prevail because of its magnificent perfection. But the Process itself challenged us all to thing bigger than that. The KK community put its head in the sand and refused.


This is why I am not going this time. I'm disgusted by the way we've been treated (all factions!) And I'm equally disgusted by all you sheep who let it happen!

This is base cowardice. You're just like someone who won't vote. You won't turn up and then -- I am sure -- you will feel that you have the right to attack the Process that you refused to participate in. And yet you have (in the past) talked about "democracy". Turn up or shut up. Be a mensch.


Why I wonder have the language group reps on the Partnership agreed to this farce, year after year after year?

KK users comprise more people on the Partnership than other users. One may surmise that the KK group reps believed that KK was a shoe-in, since the Kesva's position was to do nothing until KK had its day in court.


I can only guess that some desk-wallah

That's a racist term. It is a Hindi word borrowed during the British Raj.
wispered

recte 'whispered'
in their ears that it would all be fixed to go their way.

Eh? You are saying that someone (who?) told the Agan Tavas, Cussel an Tavas, and Kesva reps alike that it was a fix? BOLLOCKS. What an appalling fiction.
But it can't go everyone's way, so someone's going to find themselves buggered come Sunday.

It has been our view that the only way for us all to win is for us all to lose. We must all give up our familiar orthography for a new one agreed by consensus.
It could be us, it could be them, or it could perhaps be everyone if the decision is somehow avoided yet again.

A Fifth Form makes more and more sense, the more you jabber on.


But whichever way it goes it will be an appalling mess which will simply sow the seeds for further trouble.

Planning to cause trouble, are you?


Why? Because you can't get resolution without first allowing everyone to vent their spleen, this is basic psychology.

You haven't vented enough spleen, Keith dear? You've been venting spleen since I first encountered you.
Unfortunat[e]ly preventing open public debate has just allowed everyone to dig in further into their entrenched positions and become more and more frustrated. Frustration which they then vent on the 'other side'.

Lies, lies, lies. The ONLY thing "preventing" public debate is the Kesva's REFUSAL to enter into debate.


I would suggest that those who go on Sunday take over the procedings and hold a proper debate.

Which means what? What would you "debate"?
Otherwise the various organisations should arrange a full public debate, or perhaps a series of spaced debates over the coming few months.

Would you be saying this if you felt that the Commission were going to choose KK over UC, RLC, UCR, KS, and KD?


To succeed they will need to be OPEN, PUBLIC and INFORMED (i.e. with experts invited as appropriate, reliable figures available etc). The MINIMUM requirement for resolution is that EVERYONE CAN HAVE THEIR SAY (because most people won't listen to anyone else's position until after they've had their own shout). That will need an exceptional chairman, but I don't doubt that given the need one could be found.

Agan Tavas and Cussel an Tavas members have had frank and deep discussions about the possibilities of orthography reform for a year now. It has been at least 8 months since I first wrote to Ken George asking him to join the discussion. He refused. You refused. The rest of the Kesva refused.

Our "say" is a set of minimum requirements that we think must be met for an orthography to be acceptbale. Evidently your "say" is that "it should be KK". Well, that doesn't seem (to me) to pass muster.


If anyone were to oppose such a debate we would do well to ask what part of the truth they feared.

I am sure we have asked ourselves many times why you have REFUSED to engage with us. I can only assume that you fear that our linguistic arguments show yours to be inadequate. Sorry, but there it is. It therefore ends up in the real of socio-linguistics.

I trust that Commission will make the best choice.

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Post by Evertype » Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:24 pm

You know, this isn't a very intelligent statement you have made. In the first place, nobody is "ganging up" on the Kemynites. People opposed the introduction of this orthography 20 years ago. But we opposed it not because we are "anti-Kemyn". But because we are "pro-Cornish".

KK has not been all that successful. It commands not more than 55% of the Revival (of course, having taken over a dedicated publisher), and the numbers of Revivalists now is about 500 in all, not really any more than there were 20 years ago.

You forget that RLC users used to be aloof from KK and UC/R users alike. But UC/R and RLC users got together and worked together. No "ganging up". Collaboration and consensus-building. It's the KK factions who have resisted civilized movement towards a solution to the Cornish Orthography War.

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Post by Morvran » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:04 am

Hello Michael, I'm afraid you've misunderstood at least half of what I was saying, too obsessed with you own rant, or too busy correcting my minor spelling mistakes to pay attention.

I was not getting at the Commission, per se. It's the whole set-up that stinks. If the Commission's decision is to stick then they must first gain the confidence of all parties. The conditions for this have already been posted. Each group must be assured that their submissions have been read and understood, but the Commission afaik have not 'returned the call' to anyone, not even the LWG which was set up specifically for that purpose. Then the Commission should have shared their thoughts with the language groups as the felt their way to a solution. That way objections could have been fielded (either allowed for or ruled out of order with reasons) as they arose. As it is we're to be presented with we know not what conclusion, with no chance to consider or formulate sensible responses. More to the point, the loosing party(s) (could be us, could be you, this goes beyond who wins on the day) will go on to object and will not feel that their objections have been heard, 'cus the Commission will have taken their money (well our money really ...) and ran.

So the way things have been set up mean :

(a) There will be a lot of angry people on Sunday (could by you, could be us); and
(b) The 'war' will continue for a few more decades.

[Historical note : The Welsh spent close on 100 years on their spelling war during the C19].

[Linguistic Notes : -wallah is indeed derived from Hindi, it supplies English with a useful agentative suffix, meaning a (civil) servant who does a particular type of job associated with the first part of the compound. Equivalent to C&W -gwas or Gaelic gille. There is nothing racial in it's modern slang usage in Britain.

Mensch otoh has distinct Nazi connotations, also sprach ubermensch Michael! ]

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Post by Morvran » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:17 am

Most of the people who still use Nancian UC are not opposed to KK, they 'live and let live'. They have no more interest in Williams' ideas than they have in Ken's, they just like to keep to their old money (some of them probably still hord half-crowns and 10/- notes).

The Late Cornish fans are (a) very few, and (b) split at least three ways, and (b) apart from Dick, Neil and Bernard couldn't speak Cornish to save their lives.

UCR in it's decade of existence had no noticable take-up whatsoever. Apart from Nynja, no-one ever published in it -- oh one novel practically re-written by Nicholas.

Do us a favour Michael, try to engage in some original thinking for once.

Looking at the predictability of Michael's posts, and his difficulty with even common metaphores, I'm wondering if they would pass the Turing Test.


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Post by Evertype » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:37 am


morvran said:
Hello Michael, I'm afraid you've misunderstood at least half of what I was saying, too obsessed with you own rant, or too busy correcting my minor spelling mistakes to pay attention.

I correct your spelling regularly to underscore what I think is a certain carelessness which indicates a disregard for spelling in English. Why should we consider your views on Cornish spelling to be valid? Because you dislike English and like Cornish?


I was not getting at the Commission, per se.

I did not suggest that you were.
It's the whole set-up that stinks.

Your opinion.
If the Commission's decision is to stick then they must first gain the confidence of all parties. The conditions for this have already been posted.

What conditions? Posted where?
Each group must be assured that their submissions have been read and understood, but the Commission afaik have not 'returned the call' to anyone, not even the LWG which was set up specifically for that purpose.

The LWG has failed to accomplish anything because of the way its members were chosen. They were chosen along blatant partisan lines, not because of skill or knowledge of linguistic or orthographic questions. (That is my opinion but I am given to understand that you also feel that the LWG was not chosen wisely.)
Then the Commission should have shared their thoughts with the language groups as the[y] felt their way to a solution.

They might have done so if the KK camp had not signalled its COMPLETE REJECTION to duscuss anything until "KK as SWF" had been taken off the table.
That way objections could have been fielded (either allowed for or ruled out of order with reasons) as they arose. As it is we're to be presented with we know not what conclusion,

True. We none of us know what the Commission will say on Sunday.
with no chance to consider or formulate sensible responses. More to the point, the losing party(s) (could be us, could be you, this goes beyond who wins on the day)

WRONG WRONG WRONG. You failed to grasp the nettle of orthography reform. If the Commission were to choose UC, RLC, or UCR to be the SWF I think we would all say "No thanks, we prefer the compromise KS/KD reconciliation which is better. (And we think that is better than KK, of course).
will go on to object and will not feel that their objections have been heard, 'cus the Commission will have taken their money (well our money really ...) and ran.

The Commissioners have had travel expenses. I do not know and I do not care whether they received other remuneration. Unless you have special knowledge abotu this, you ought not talk about monies they may have received.


So the way things have been set up mean :

(a) There will be a lot of angry people on Sunday (could by you, could be us); and

If a Fifth Form is chosen (being a reconciliation of KS and KD and forcing us to give up UC, RLC, UCR, we shall not be angry.

(b) The 'war' will continue for a few more decades.

You want that, do you? Why? If you CANNOT IMAGINE any orthography but KK you might hold this view. But KK is based on ONE MAN'S THEORY and it is SUSPECT and has been subject to SUSTAINED OPPOSITION for two decades. KS was devised by communal interaction and consensus-building.


[Historical note : The Welsh spent close on 100 years on their spelling war during the C19].

Prove this assertion.


[Linguistic Notes : -wallah is indeed derived from Hindi, it supplies English with a useful agentative suffix, meaning a (civil) servant who does a particular type of job associated with the first part of the compound.

Bollocks. Rikshaw-wallah is the term for an assuredly non-bureaucratic specialist.
Equivalent to C&W -gwas or Gaelic gille. There is nothing racial in it's modern slang usage in Britain.

It is "giolla" in Irish, and that means 'servant (boy)'. There's no getting out of the political ickiness of your statement....


Mensch otoh has distinct Nazi connotations, also sprach [ü]bermensch Michael! ]

This is utter nonsense. "Be a mensch" is a Jewish-American term. See the Wikipedia article on "Mensch".



edited by: Evertype, Oct 13, 2007 - 12:40 AM

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Post by Bardh » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:40 am


morvran said:

(And I'd still like to know who cooked up this whole Tremogh charade in the first place).





Cui bono?



edited by: Bardh, Oct 13, 2007 - 12:41 AM

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Post by Bardh » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:46 am


goky said:
So it is true it is the anti Kemmynites ganging up on the Kemmynites, KK has been succesfull, so join forces and destroy it, and hope something is salvaged from the wreckage.



That's the prepsective of the monkeys, of course. For the organ-grinders, the aim would achieved at 'destroy it'.

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Post by Bardh » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:50 am


morvran said:


Mensch otoh has distinct Nazi connotations, also sprach ubermensch Michael! ]




I disagree on both counts. Mensch is a good old Yiddish expression, very warm and respectful. Not a term anybody would associate with Nick-n-Mick.

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Post by Bardh » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:53 am


morvran said:

UCR in it's decade of existence had no noticable take-up whatsoever.




That's why it's been given official backing.

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