Some thoughts about the Process

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Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:41 am

Re: Welsh 100 Years (spelling) War. Read the Introduction to Orgraff yr Iaith Gymraeg.

Is there some sort of prize for repeatedly missing the point?

It should be noticable to all how ME is afflicted by doublethink. On the one hand he admits that "nobody knows what the Commission is going to say", and on the other he clearly cannot contemplate the possibility that KK will be accepted, rather than some ill-thoughtout mess of everything else. Having one person devise something does at least ensure a certain degree of consistency and harmony of design.

Btw. The British Government (every government for the last few decades) has been subject to 'sustained opposition' from the Official Raving Loonie Party -- always good for a laugh, a few loonies, but hardly cause for re-drafting the Constitution.

Pokorny
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Post by Pokorny » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:28 am


morvran said:

Mensch otoh has distinct Nazi connotations, also sprach ubermensch Michael!




Please don't slander my beloved Yiddish.
Anyway I am off to catch my plane. See you all - or many of you anyway - tomorrow.

Bardh
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Post by Bardh » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:19 am


morvran said:

The British Government (every government for the last few decades) has been subject to 'sustained opposition' from the Official Raving Loonie Party -- always good for a laugh, a few loonies, but hardly cause for re-drafting the Constitution.




My recollection is of the Official Monster Raving Loonie Party. Are you claiming that Nick-n-Mick is the linguistic equivalent of Captain Beanie?

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:19 am


morvran said:
It should be noticable to all how ME is afflicted by doublethink. On the one hand he admits that "nobody knows what the Commission is going to say",

It's true. Nobody does.
and on the other he clearly cannot contemplate the possibility that KK will be accepted,

That's right. I don't believe something that any of the four existing forms should be accepted.
rather than some ill-thoughtout mess of everything else.

This is disingenuous. I don't believe that KS, for instance, is "ill thought-out".
Having one person devise something does at least ensure a certain degree of consistency and harmony of design.

KK is neither consistent nor accurate even within its own principles. And the "design choices" George made may have seemed "logical" to him, but they failed by "creating" a language that did not look like Cornish.

Bardh
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Post by Bardh » Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:20 am


goky said:
It is interesting how ME is the only one not critical of the process, it could be for 2 reasons 1. He will never agree to what ever Keith or Tim say, even if they say black is white or white is black,



That's when Nick-n-Mick would agree, dear boy.


goky said:
2. A bit more sinister, his Puppet master has a few more puppets to play with.



That's our real concern.



edited by: Bardh, Oct 13, 2007 - 10:21 AM

Bardh
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Post by Bardh » Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:38 am


goky said:
For the people who speak and use Kemmyn, Kemmyn does look like Cornish as it reflects the language they speak, and not a dead language.



This is one of the central issues. As Nick-n-Mick said at the last Tremogh circus, 'You can't change the spelling of a dead [sic] language." In other words, he doesn't want Cornish to be used by anybody except under his control. That means he wants to stop us speaking Cornish, and wait until he's decided how we should spell it. (He's been changing the spelling incessantly over the past decade or so, and shows no signs of letting up with this orthographical 'Page 416'.) Then, perhaps, he'll let us start again, under strict supervision.

The organ-grinders would be satisfied as long as he succeeded in disrupting the present usage of Cornish. Happily, that simply isn't going to happen. Whatever rabbit is pulled out of the hat tomorrow, on Monday morning the Cornish-speaking community will still be developing and growing. So far, it's done this in the face of official indifference. If it has to cope with official hostility - well, a few office suits are the comic relief after Henry VIII and the New Model Army.

Pdunbar
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Post by Pdunbar » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:57 pm


Evertype said:



I can only guess that some desk-wallah



That's a racist term. It is a Hindi word borrowed during the British Raj.



"Desk-wallah" is a racist term, according to failed linguistic pundit Michael Everson.

Oops! Pundit is a Hindi word, too - so it must also be (accordong to ME, anyway) 'racist'.

So we had better stop using all loan words, then. Bungalow, khaki, bukshee, tea, coffee, banana, cafe, whisky, gossen, galore...

While 'desk-wallah' is certainly a term of disapprobation, only a dunderhead (look it up, Michael) could possibly describe Morvran's use of it as 'racist'.

- Pawl

Pdunbar
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Post by Pdunbar » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:31 pm

Anyone seen today's Western Morning News? (p15)

"POPULAR FORM OF CORNISH LANGUAGE CHAMPIONED"

"academic study causes stir on eve of forum to decide on official written word"

the last line of the article reads:

"Dr Nicholas Williams was last night unavailable for comment."

http://www.thisiswesternmorningnews.co. ... barsearchr







edited by: pdunbar, Oct 13, 2007 - 03:43 PM

ThomasLeigh
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Post by ThomasLeigh » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:11 pm

People seem to be interpreting Chaudhri's work as evidence in favour of KK for SWF; however phonology and orthography are two different things. Even if an independent academic study such as Chaudhri's supports KG's theories about Cornish phonology, it does not necessarily follow that KG's spelling system must be adopted.

(And please, nobody misinterpret this as campaigning against KK -- as I hope I've made clear, I'm not on any "side" of the orthographic brouhaha.)

Palores
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Post by Palores » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:40 pm


Even if an independent academic study such as Chaudhri's supports KG's theories about Cornish phonology, it does not necessarily follow that KG's spelling system must be adopted.

I would prefer "confirmed" rather than "adopted"; KK has been the de facto standard written form for years.
No, the significant thing about Chaudhri's work is that it supports Ken George's arguments about pre-occlusion preceding a prosodic shift (if any). Nicholas Williams and his supporters have been attacking the basis of KK claiming that it is "fundamentally flawed", "poor scholarship", etc. Chaudhri's work shows independently that these claims are unfounded.

Bardh
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Post by Bardh » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:49 pm


pdunbar said:


"Desk-wallah" is a racist term, according to failed linguistic pundit Michael Everson.

- Pawl



According to a retired Indian Army officer I knew a very long time ago, 'desk-wallah' was a term often applied to the Indian Civil Service. I see what Mongvras means, but cannot agree that there is any helpful parallel. The ICS where renowned for the depressing efficiency with which they ran India on behalf of the Raj. The 'Process', in addition to all its other faults, is renowned for its exuberant inefficiency.

Bardh
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Post by Bardh » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:51 pm


pdunbar said:
Anyone seen today's Western Morning News? (p15)

"POPULAR FORM OF CORNISH LANGUAGE CHAMPIONED"

"academic study causes stir on eve of forum to decide on official written word"

the last line of the article reads:

"Dr Nicholas Williams was last night unavailable for comment."

http://www.thisiswesternmorningnews.co. ... barsearchr




That's a pity. The Welsh media are keen to hear his side of the story. Mind you, he has got form for being unavailable for comment.







edited by: Bardh, Oct 13, 2007 - 08:52 PM

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