Spellyans Watch -- Goelva Spellyans

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
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factotum
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Post by factotum » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:02 pm

Re. your hypothetical "neuen" > "neven". Your argument could be applied unchanged I think to justify the use of 'k' throughout as in KK. And no doubt many other things as well. In order to make such editioral changes you must have an underlying theory as to how the phonology worked — yet elsewhere you appear to despise the use of 'hypothetical' theoretical concepts. Basically it's the old case of arguing from selective evidence, and indeed selective approaches. You use whatever gives you your 'correct' (i.e. predetermined) result, but rubbish the very same methods when someone else uses them to come up with something you don't like.
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Then you contradict yourself again. There is no settled pronunciation of Revived Cornish, and probably never will be unless and until there is a community of people who regularly speak Cornish to one another on a daily basis. Until then we're all learners. We speak as we were taught, and there are several models that are or have been taught. Some are better at achieving the desired sounds than others, some don't bother as much, no one is forced to master the pronunciation. So in practice there is are a whole range of "Revived Cornish Pronunciations" varying from entirely English sounds, (or Welsh or French or Breton ...) to something close to one or other of the target models. Now on what basis do you pick and choose which English features to condemn and which to accept? Why object to English whining vowels (but it all depends on where you come from really), but accept absence of geminates, or proper stress/intonation/vowel lengths? English does have geminates at the phonetic level across word boundaries, and I should say they are more easily acquired than pure vowels by your average beginner. But then you're contact with Cornish learners and speakers here in Cornwall has been minimal. To us you're just another 'expert' from >100 miles away.
If Revived Cornish is to be based on the Nancian tradition of "pronounce it like English" then the traditional verse texts will not be accessible, and what you have created, your "NeoCornish" will be exactly that 'Cornic' conlang that your academic chums condemned us for creating all those years ago. Indeed in many ways KK was born out of a reaction to those criticisms. Out of a determination to sort out the phonology and pronunciation. You say we've failed so abandon the project, in effect abandon any attempt to revive something close to authentic Cornish. You and your linguist collegues could, if you so wished, assist us in achieving our aims. This is what happens elsewhere in the world where languages are revived. But Cornish is a bit of a joke, you prefer to mock us for our shortcomings and fob us off with a second-rate product that has no long-term credibility.
What possibly could be your real agenda?






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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:54 pm

Keith charged:

Re. your hypothetical "neuen" > "neven". Your argument could be applied unchanged I think to justify the use of 'k' throughout as in KK.I don't believe so. I believe you've missed the point completely. We could, it is true, recommend the abandonment of c and q in favour of k throughout; we don't do this because (like Nance and Jenner before him) we respect the traditional alternation ca/ke/ki/co/cu/ky/qw. It may be, strictly speaking, unnecessary to represent [k], but it is a part of the traditional orthography which (1) is not problematic or ambiguous to learners and (2) preserves traditional orthographic forms, which (though you do not care) many people want to preserve. My example with *neven countered the accusation that "authenticity" means "exactly as an etymon is attested". Our orthographic system is authentic; individual etyma may be (and of course are) spelt according to that system even if each one is not found thus in the texts. There is no contradiction here.And no doubt many other things as well. In order to make such editioral changes you must have an underlying theory as to how the phonology worked Which, of course, we do.

— yet elsewhere you appear to despise the use of 'hypothetical' theoretical concepts.No, I object to the way that you reshape the evidence to fit your theory; it appears to me that you simply don't understand how to read medieval orthographies. I do not believe that the texts show evidence for gemination as you have it, or for conditioned vowel length based on the length of the following consonant. I believe (as does Williams, as did Caradar, and Nance, and Jenner before them) that Old Cornish consonant length had been lost by the height of the Middle Cornish period, and that vowel length was phonemic. I think that by Jordan's time the phonology had taken on features of the English language (which is not surprising, and which is also seen in the influence of English on Irish and of French on Breton).Since this phonological model is also closer to the pronunciation of the native language of nearly all learners, it is clear that our recommended pronunciation (which builds on the work of Nance and Jenner and Lhuyd) is more likely to succeed than the one which you recommend. Because after twenty years of "running" the Revival, KK phonology has not taken root. It's a failed experiment. No shame in that; George gets full marks for having tried. But his model was mistaken, and impractical, and it's time to move on.Basically it's the old case of arguing from selective evidence, and indeed selective approaches. You use whatever gives you your 'correct' (i.e. predetermined) result, but rubbish the very same methods when someone else uses them to come up with something you don't like.Not so. I am confident that the evidence supports the phonology we recommend; I have studied the phonology and arguments put forth in favour of KK, and I do not find them convincing. Were the convincing, I would not complain. But they are not. Therefore I do not believe that KK is a suitable orthography for Revived Cornish, which is (1) why I have worked to show this to others (including the Commissioners) and (2) why I have worked on a system which is superior to UC, and RLC, and UCR, and (3) why I have worked with the SWF to determine its shortcomings, and to find corrections to them.

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:00 pm

"To us you're just another 'expert' from >100 miles away".  Yes, Keith.  Remind us again where you're from, would you?
(Isn't it strange? – if I make a comment like Keith's, I get accused of 'xenophobia').


Very well put, Michael, but ten gets you one that your Point c) will be reinterpreted by the usual suspects as "working against the SWF".

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:12 pm

A eus gwir edhomm a Woelva Spellyans erbynn an eur ma? Nyns eus gansa tra nowydh vth dh'y leverel, an gyth dra arta hag arta y'ga Sowsnek skwith ha kledhek. Gwell ri dhedha an merkyans a dhendilons i ...  tra vyth oll!
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:11 am

Meur dhe les yw an arkiv, byttegyns --- avel displetyans a'ga skians ha'ga erviryans dibarow


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Anselm
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Re: Spellyans Watch -- Goelva Spellyans

Post by Anselm » Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:07 pm

Omglywans hedorr ynov ...
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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