Lyver Pejadow rag Kenyver Jorna - Cornish Daily Prayer

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:45 am

Constructive and informed as ever, aren't you, Steve?

How many times am I going to have to repeat that also echoes English. Old English. hweol = wheel; hwitan = white, etc. The argument that is English doesn't wash.



edited by: marhak, Apr 15, 2009 - 11:45 AM

truru
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Post by truru » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:53 am


gokyreloaded said:

Who are you/we to decide what is and isn't proper Cornish? If we don't keep to what was written in traditional Cornish as closely as is reasonable


then why don't you shut up Truru, you obviously know nothing, !



Goky you really are a master of debate!

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Eddie-C
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Post by Eddie-C » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:49 pm

... and a master of typography: let us just admire that boldly idiosyncratic with which Gokkee terminates his rhetorical coup de gra^ce. Why, when really in the groove, he's been known to string 3, 4, or even more punctuational marks together.,;.!?!
[sic]

(it's odd, btw, that one who's so addicted to misusing these marks in such profusion should be so opposed to diacritical marks, don'cha think?)

We might also be breathtaken by both his bold eschewal of capital letters, and his fine demotic disregard for the shackles of mere Logic, Syntax, Grammar or Spelling.

These are, of course, well matched by his stern disavowal of Facts, History, Linguistics and the members of the human race. Poor little outsider!

Given these features of both his English and 'Cornic', we must conclude that --by comparison to his effusions: 14 varieties of home-brewed fake-Cornic so far!-- Kebmyn looks almost Awthentyk!

Gocky by name, idiot by nature.

:lol:

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:04 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :-)

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:43 pm


morvran said:
[quote=Evertype]There's a new dictionary coming out. We hear that it is about a ream thick.

The size and appearance of a dictionary of course depends to a large extent on the choices made with regard to typeface, print size(s), layout of entries, types of information included, use of abbreviations and codes etc. etc. as you well know.[/quote]I do indeed. So you're saying that the dictionary will be about a ream thick?


morvran said:
I have given my opinion on some of these matters with examples. Unfortunately with its present bunker mentality the Kesva is difficult to persuade.

They are people, with their own minds. They make their own choices.


morvran said:
Having been battered by your often silly criticisms, they now react negatively to any criticism, even helpful and justified criticism, from me as much as from yourself.

The criticisms I offered in my review of the typography of the Gerlyver Kres were not "silly". In fact, they gave a fairly clear description of how George might improve his typography. What came as a shock was the arrogance of George's response to that review in the second edition of that book. I discussed my feelings about that in Form and Content


morvran said:
Just a few lines of criticism here against the Kesva was enough to make my position on that body untenable.

Pretty thin-skinned and unprofessional behaviour from your colleagues at the Kesva, if you ask me. It's a pity you are so attached to the phonology and orthography you are. You can't make a difference anywhere. It must be lonely for you.


morvran said:
Well I'm sure you're proud of the mischief you've made.

I have made no mischief. I have fought the good fight, for Traditional Cornish orthography, against a construed orthography with an unsatisfactory aesthetic (not to mention an untenable underlying phonology). I am proud of the work that I have done to help the Commissioners come to a rational decision, by working with others developing Kernowak Standard [sic] before the AHG, and in the fine work we have done on Kernowek Standard [sic] since the publication of the SWF. And I'm very proud of the books published so far, and of all the ones in the pipeline yet to come.


morvran said:
[quote=Evertype]Will it implement a spelling reform? Who can tell? Keith suggests that it will.

[/quote]You didn't answer my question.

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:54 pm

Goky is a master of mass debate (say those two words quickly) :-P. Not that I give a toss.



edited by: marhak, Apr 15, 2009 - 01:55 PM

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Eddie-C
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Post by Eddie-C » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:06 pm


Eddie-C said:
it's odd, btw, that one who's so addicted to misusing these marks in such profusion should be so opposed to diacritical marks, don'cha think

A belated postscriptum that might just persuade Gokkumms to come to the Diacritical Side of the Force ... AND BEYOND,!,!,!

If he looks closely at the exotic marks available in Unicode, he will find that some languages like diacritics so much that they're not content with using them frugally, one at a time. No, they stack the blighters up in twos and threes and more, with gay abandon.

Moreover, musical notation has a wide range of diacritical notational marks, some of which might be relevant to linguistic notation.

Why, Gokkee could match his profusion of punctuation marks with an equally impressive display of diacritical and musical ones.

Might we look forward to Gokkywek version 15, perhaps, with mandatory multiple marks of all kinds?

8-)

ps. Marhak, you need to get a firm grip on yourself, and take yourself in hand. You'll feel like a new man!

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:14 pm

I'll leave that to those best suited to it, Eddie. Nor will I ever feel like a new man. Just not that way inclined. New woman, yes - if I can find one (with long curling copper hair . . .).

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Eddie-C
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Post by Eddie-C » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:27 pm

I thought the picture of you on horseback had you clad in a cloak and loose trousers. However, as your remarks about 'feeling like a new woman' raise some doubts as to your ... er... procilivities, perhaps it was really attire of the, ahem ... distaff persuasion.

Perhaps 'marhak' is a nom de guerre for 'marhoges', eh?

:-O

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:41 pm

Loose trousers? You silly mare - they're skin-tight black jodhpurs (which I don't usually wear as they tend to give one the 'Nureyev" look or, in my case, the Linford Christie lunchpack look). I gave in wearing them when someone remarked that me being a Sagittarian made me half horse - and they could see which half that was! (It's the long nose that does it). Then there was the incident in St Just when someone commented: "Look at the dick on that horse", which mystified me completely as I was riding a mare at the time).

Nope, I am, and remain, most definitely Marhak (but there is a certain copper-haired marhoges out there . . . he added, wistfully).







edited by: marhak, Apr 15, 2009 - 04:47 PM

Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:46 pm

Actually since there are no Cornish speaking communities or neighbourhoods in Cornwall and haven't been for 200-600+ years, it surely follows that Cornish is a foreign language to everyone except the handful of modern native speakers. Your intuitions based on the English versions of placenames, dialect words etc etc will in most cases be misleading. Having ancestors who way back when may have spoken Cornish is no help either, because it doesn't come down in the genes, it has to be passed on by each generation. And that thread was broken.

So Cornish is a foreign language, and must be learned as such. When I learn another language I don't expect it to look like English, or sound like English, or be spelled like English. Certainly not the latter, because as spelling goes, English is just plain weird (there are special reasons for that, but they only apply to English). So neither do I expect Cornish to look, sound or work anything like English, even dialect English. So why do you?

Anyway, here's one possible future to wind up Michael.




truru
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Post by truru » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:12 pm


morvran said:
So Cornish is a foreign language, and must be learned as such. When I learn another language I don't expect it to look like English, or sound like English, or be spelled like English. Certainly not the latter, because as spelling goes, English is just plain weird (there are special reasons for that, but they only apply to English). So neither do I expect Cornish to look, sound or work anything like English, even dialect English. So why do you?



Who does? I don't. You're being rather patronising. I'm not trying to make Cornish look more English, however you are trying to make Cornish look less English. I'm not the one making assumptions on what I think it should have looked like 200 years ago. I want to write it as it did look like, of course with necessary changes. I don't see z's or kw's or hw's as necessary changes.

I don't go around writing French without gender distinction just because it's a pain to have to learn the gender of every word. If I did that, people would wonder what on earth I was doing, with French there's a right way and a wrong way to spell it. Cornish however doesn't have a right way and a wrong way, it has many different ways that are right or wrong depending on your opinion. You think KK still looks too English, that's your opinion, so you want more change. I've never come across anyone who's seen Cornish and thought it was just misspelled English, so I see the changes you want as unnecessary and the reasons for them as weak.

How you got the idea that people expect Cornish to look like English, considering they're in a completely different language family, is anyone's guess. I would imagine it's just more of your "ordinary Cornish people are too thick to know anything about linguistics" mentality.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:10 am


morvran said:
Actually since there are no Cornish speaking communities or neighbourhoods in Cornwall and haven't been for 200-600+ years, it surely follows that Cornish is a foreign language to everyone except the handful of modern native speakers.

True, as far as it goes.

Your intuitions based on the English versions of placenames, dialect words etc etc will in most cases be misleading.

BULL! You say this only because YOU have a particular investment in Kernowek Kebmyn orthography, which turned its back on Traditional Cornish orthographic forms. Truru's "intuitions" based on what he sees in the living environment are what make him interested in the language, no matter how many Kammbronns you have tried to pepper the landscape with. Jenner understood what Truru and so many other people feel. YOU and YOUR FRIENDS think that it doesn't matter what Cornish looks like, and you're fool enough to dismiss those who choose to differ
and who choose to prefer to distribute C and K and Q. If you'd had any wit you would have realized you were on a non-starter: that if you insisted on your Konlang Kornish the resistence would simply never go away.

Having ancestors who way back when may have spoken Cornish is no help either, because it doesn't come down in the genes, it has to be passed on by each generation.

Who's talking about genetics? Red herring.

And that thread was broken.

So what?


So Cornish is a foreign language, and must be learned as such.

Here we go.

When I learn another language I don't expect it to look like English,

So?

or sound like English,

Bulgarian and Persian both share many phonological features with English. Why can't Cornish?

or be spelled like English.

Here it comes

Certainly not the latter, because as spelling goes, English is just plain weird (there are special reasons for that, but they only apply to English).

Your prejudices about English orthography may be due to the fact that you're a poor speller.

So neither do I expect Cornish to look, sound or work anything like English, even dialect English.

These are unrealistic and fantastic aspirations of your own.

So why do you?

He doesn't When I read what Truru writes, I am reminded of Jenner. Jenner knew why Cornishmen should wish to learn Cornish. It has nothing to do with your evident agenda, or George's.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:12 am


morvran said:
Anyway, here's one possible future to wind up Michael.


I am by no means wound up. I could say one thing, though. "Let me count the ways."

Now, favour us with an account of the provenance of that image.

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