Lyver Pejadow rag Kenyver Jorna - Cornish Daily Prayer

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:55 pm

Keith, KK only works if people use its (assumed) phonology. But they don't. Not even Ken himself.

Never mind insisting upon spellings that don't look English. Concentrate upon people pronouncing Cornish as if it were English. Listen to Polin Pris, for example. She pronounces Cornish as English as it comes. So do many others. I cringe when I hear Kernow pronounced like Received English with that horrible old-time BBC rounded O (and, all too often, no pronounced R or at the other end of the scale, the exaggerated trilled R).

How should Cornish be pronounced? Listen to Dick Gendall. Listen to Dan. Or Neil. What they are speaking accords well with Lhuyd's phonetic code - and Lhuyd remains the only source we have of native Cornish pronunciation. His assessment was fact. All others can only be theory and unprovable at that.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:29 am


morvran said:
[quote=truru]
... neither do I expect Cornish to look, sound or work anything like English, even dialect English. So why do you?


Who does? I don't. You're being rather patronising. I'm not trying to make Cornish look more English,


You don't need to, the 'traditional spelling' is already heavily anglicised.[/quote]This error, or lie, is the cause of everything that's wrong with your thinking about Cornish.



edited by: Evertype, Apr 17, 2009 - 01:29 AM

Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:31 am


Evertype said:
[quote=morvran]Klingon was at least designed by a fully paid-up, qualified academic linguist. Some of his work has contributed to the revival of the Mutsun language of California.


Um, no. Whilst Mark Okrand has a degree in linguistics, he works in a company that handles close-captioning for the hearing-impaired. Like many linguists, he does not work in academia. ~~~~[/quote]

AFAIK he did at the time (1977) he did the work I was referring to, collating and interpreting J.P. Harrington's field notes on Mutsun.


We will first examine which aspects of Mutsun are recoverable, in order to address how imperfect the revitalization of this particular language may be. The phonetics, morpho-phonology, morphology, and basic syntax of Mutsun are relatively clear. Harrington was an excellent phonetician (Callaghan 1975, Okrand 1977), and his notes provide extensive information about segmental phonetics, although little about suprasegmentals. Marc Okrand (1977) compiled an excellent grammar of the language which covers basic syntax, and most of the morphology based on parts of Harrington’s notes.



I think it unlikely that he would have undertaken such 'pure research' on a dormant language other than in an academic context. But you twist my meaning. My point of course was that he was qualified in the science and disipline of linguistics, not say Greek and Irish literature.

Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:35 am


Evertype said:
[quote=morvran][quote=Evertype]I could say one thing, though. "Let me count the ways."


Please explain, I don't follow.[/quote]

Why not answer my two questions first?

1) Will George's new dictionary implement a spelling change for Kernowek Kebmyn and add zeds?

[/quote]

I really don't know, why not ask Ken.



2) What is the provenance of the image you sent?



It was made from a Pdf file on my computer.


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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:05 am


morvran said:
[quote=Evertype][quote=morvran]Klingon was at least designed by a fully paid-up, qualified academic linguist. Some of his work has contributed to the revival of the Mutsun language of California.


Um, no. Whilst Mark Okrand has a degree in linguistics, he works in a company that handles close-captioning for the hearing-impaired. Like many linguists, he does not work in academia. ~~~~[/quote]
AFAIK he did at the time (1977) he did the work I was referring to, collating and interpreting J.P. Harrington's field notes on Mutsun.[/quote]Well I was just watching him on the specials DVD to Star Trek 3 and he was talking about the captioning.


I think it unlikely that he would have undertaken such 'pure research' on a dormant language other than in an academic context. But you twist my meaning. My point of course was that he was qualified in the science and disipline of linguistics, not say Greek and Irish literature.

As opposed to primatology or marine science? :roll:

And do spare us your fantasies about Williams' fields of specialization. Clearly you don't know anything about it, as you constantly "parrot" the same silliness about "Greek and Irish literature".

You talk about linguistics like an expert, but all you really do, Keith, is show yourself to be a big baby.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:03 am


morvran said:
[quote=Evertype][quote=morvran][quote=Evertype]I could say one thing, though. "Let me count the ways."

Please explain, I don't follow.[/quote]Why not answer my two questions first? 1) Will George's new dictionary implement a spelling change for Kernowek Kebmyn and add zeds?[/quote]I really don't know, why not ask Ken.[/quote]I see. I doubt Ken would answer a question I posed him. After all, I invited him to discuss a Fifth Form all that time ago, and he declined to discuss anything with me, now, didn't he? I think that was when your Kesva friends were telling you not to talk to me at all. Remember? When you tried to get me to believe that if I abstained from publishing Form and Content we could negotiate together?


2) What is the provenance of the image you sent?

It was made from a Pdf file on my computer.[/quote]I see. Well, if you aren't going to give me a straight answer, don't expect me to explain to you what I meant by "Let me count the ways".

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Eddie-C
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Post by Eddie-C » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:22 am


truru said:
Either you can keep Cornish as your basement weekend hobby or you can do what the rest of the revival is doing and help turn it into a real thriving community language. You can't have it both ways Keith, it's time to pick one.

Ass yu hedna gwyr, a Truru.

Del yma'n scrysel war wyasva An Gernewegva ow leverel ...


8-)



edited by: Eddie-C, Apr 17, 2009 - 02:48 PM

Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:47 pm


Evertype said:
[quote=morvran][quote=Evertype][quote=morvran][quote=Evertype]I could say one thing, though. "Let me count the ways."

Please explain, I don't follow.[/quote]Why not answer my two questions first? 1) Will George's new dictionary implement a spelling change for Kernowek Kebmyn and add zeds?[/quote]I really don't know, why not ask Ken.[/quote]I see. I doubt Ken would answer a question I posed him. After all, I invited him to discuss a Fifth Form all that time ago, and he declined to discuss anything with me, now, didn't he? I think that was when your Kesva friends were telling you not to talk to me at all. Remember? When you tried to get me to believe that if I abstained from publishing Form and Content we could negotiate together?[/quote]

If you recall, when I tried to use my good offices to establish a dialogue, I asked you what your side was prepared to give up and whether you might as an example, withdraw "Form and Content" as a goodwill gesture, since it was entirely negative 'knocking copy' even though dressed up as an academic exercise. Your reply was that you were prepared to give up nothing, and no good will was on offer (you had no alternative gestures in mind, except the obvious manual one). There were therefore no grounds for discussion.

This has really continued to be the case. The anti-KK factions forced through the Process and the AHG and the compromise SWF, purely as a way of sidelining the Kesva. Having achieved that aim, you are now backing off from the compromise your collegues agreed to, backing off full astern. This demonstrates that you do not appreciate the concept of 'compromise', i.e. you are not prepared to give an inch in the interest of reconciliation. Not when I first attempted to mediate, not during the AHG, and clearly not now.


[quote][quote]2) What is the provenance of the image you sent?

It was made from a Pdf file on my computer.[/quote]I see. Well, if you aren't going to give me a straight answer, don't expect me to explain to you what I meant by "Let me count the ways". [/quote]

How can I be any more straight? You can hardly be asking me to give you lessons in typesetting?




edited by: morvran, Apr 17, 2009 - 01:50 PM

truru
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Post by truru » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:54 pm


morvran said:
This demonstrates that you do not appreciate the concept of 'compromise', i.e. you are not prepared to give an inch in the interest of reconciliation.



See related quotes:


P_Trembath said:
Are you "For", the SWF, are you "Against" the SWF, or are you as yet "Undecided"?
[quote=morvran]Against


Palores said:
Against


Pdunbar said:
NO

module-pnForum-viewtopic-topic-3195.htm[/quote]

Ken George (1st LWG meeting) said:
There will be no compromise



Bardh said:
If the Language Partnership wishes to be taken seriously, it'll confirm the sheer demographic and linguistic fact that the Cornish-speaking community as a whole made its firm decision long ago. If it tries to defy the facts, it'll be ignored.

module-pnForum-viewtopic-topic-2331-start-45.htm


Bardh
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Post by Bardh » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:57 pm

Yth hevel dell wrug an 'Kesparyans' aga ervyrans ytho. Nyns eus rag henna namoy dh'y leverel y'ga hever.


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