"Jowal Lethesow" dyllys in Kernowek

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
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factotum
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Post by factotum » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:06 am

Evertype said:

The summer storm had been born in mid-Atlantic. Gathering speed and venom, it moved threateningly north-eastward until finally confronting the formidable barrier of the Land's End cliffs.

Hager-awel an hâv re bia genys in cres an Mor Atlantek. Hy a gerdhas gans godros brâs in udn gùntell toth ha venym tro ha’n north-ÿst, erna dheuth hy wàr an dyweth warbydn an let uthek a âlsyow Pedn an Wlas.
I don't think this is redolent of "English structure".


I beg to differ, from the POV of someone who has worked quite a lot with the trad. texts. To begin with, why is there an auxillary verb in the opening — Cornish has it's own way of indicating the pluperfect. Is 'genys' the best word? maybe, maybe not. 'Hager-awel' is not really 'storm' just 'nasty weather', one word for 'storm' would be tewedh, possibly there are others. The second sentence might have gone something like, Ynunn guntell toeth ha gwenon, gans godros y kerdhas trogha'n NW, may teuth hi wortiwedh erbynn alsfos difethadow Penn an Wlaz.
To be fair though, (1) creating a good narrative prose style is an important challange for Revived Cornish, since there is little in the trad. lit. to base it upon beyond JCH. Maybe we should look to Middle Welsh prose, since the syntax is often similar; (2) If I were to translate a whole novel I'd be at it for 1,000 years
---


Edit : Having read PC excellent exposition, maybe that should be yndann not ynunn, the first implies active simultaneous action, "it gathered force while it moved", the second more incidental style, "gathering force it moved", but it's a fine line.
My approach to word order fwiw is to ask what hypothetical question is being answered. So if the teacher is called John, the Q & A in English goes :
1. Who is the teacher? J. is the T.
2. What is John? J. is the T.
3. Is John the teacher? Yes, J. is the T.
The answers are identical in written form, in speech emphasis must be used.
And now in Cornish :
1. Piw yw an dyskador? Yowann yw an dyskador. (cf. My yw an dyskador)
2. Pyth yw Yowann? An dyskador yw Yowann. (cf. An dyskador ov vy)
3. Yw Yowann an dyskador? Yw. Yth yw Yowann an dyskador. (cf. Ov. Yth ov vy ...)


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factotum
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Post by factotum » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:41 am

kio2 said:
I would call it a taste of your own medicine,  coming soon 'Form and Content in Revised Kernowek Standard'


Hmm, do we get a line up and do a chapter each like they did? Who want's to trash what in particular? Look forward to receiving your mss ...


Palores
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Post by Palores » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:56 am

kio2 said:



Well we have been using 'son'  for many years now in Revived Cornish regardless of orthography, and suddenly a publication appears using ' sownd' which  does not appear in any dictionary. 



I have found the word sownd in the Gerlyver Meur, under the heading sound, i.e. it is treated as an unassimilated loan.  As kio2 points out, the word in everday use is son.

pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:58 am

Evertype said:


I doubt that he would have eschewed miras in favour of observya as the ordinary word for 'look'. It's kind of bullshìt for you to dismiss Tregear because he uses a particular loanword.
It's even bigger bullshit for you to suggest that I dismiss Tregear.

Evertype also said:

You're not cuter when you're obtuse, you know.

Whereas you're simply not cute.



And the nonsense went on:
Evidently you feel that Tregear is deficient in some way for his use of observya.

No I don't.

and on:
Yet you use many other similar loanwords in -ya. What poisons this particular word for you?

Nothing.


Those were examples of words in -ya. Do you use them? George treats them differently. Do you agree with his treatment?

I don't think I've ever used them.  I have nothing against using them although if the occasion arose I would prefer to find something that wasn't a loan.  Sorry about that, but that's just the way it is.  I use 'konvedhes' because I prefer it to 'onderstondya'.  Quirky, but true.  I don't know what the difference is between 'konvedhes' and 'onderstondya', nor when it's appropriate to use 'konvedhes' and when to use 'onderstondya'.  So rather than litter my conversation with random 'onderstondyas' just to prove how inclusive I am, I stick to 'konvedhes'.
As for whether I agree with Ken George's analysis - I've not looked at it and don't intend to.  Just look at the kind of time-wasting arguments people that spend their life talking about Cornish rather than in Cornish get into.  They're here on C24 for all to see.
Evertype, we all know you are totally devoid of a sense of humour.  We know that because you occasionally tell us you have one rather than display any sign of one.  But really, when someone makes a joke about how you can write entire sentences in attested Cornish that would be understandable to any English speaker that knows no Cornish, you might at least try to see the funny side of it.  Failing that, ignore it.


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Post by pietercharles » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:17 am

Evertype said:


pietercharles said:




I beg to differ.  Your response shows that you clearly didn't understand.  But that's nothing unusual - it's very often the case that people believe they've understood something that they clearly haven't.

It's not necessary for you to be rude and condescending, is it?

You think that's ruder and more condescending than your very own "Snottiness, your name is PieterCharles", do you?  Think on.  I merely mirror your own behaviour in a vain hope that you'll stop the silly names and other childish means of conducting discourse.

He went on:
You addressed me. If you were writing for others, you ought perhaps to have made it clear that you were intending to dismiss whatever I said.

I prefaced the explanation with "I was taught two techniques for getting to grips with this which may help readers".  And I wasn't intending to dismiss whatever you said.  I just knew - and was right - that whatever you said would be dismissive.  It was.
The reason it's quite clear that you didn't understand is because when I offered three perfectly ordinary English sentences with the emphasis marked in different places your comment was "I don't see how any of these but the first makes any sense".  And yet, I suggest to readers (not to you, Evertype, I know what your response will be) that they all make perfect sense and none of them is in any way out of the ordinary.  In context or out of context they all make a great deal of sense.

pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:43 am

factotum said:
My approach to word order fwiw is to ask what hypothetical question is being answered.



I agree - in my first post about this I called it 'the implied question', but it's the same thing.
It's the key to what Evertype didn't understand about my three ordinary sentences.
'The summer storm  had been born in mid-Atlantic' answers the hypothetical question 'What was born in the mid-Atlantic?'
'The summer storm had been born in mid-Atlantic ' answers 'What had happened to the summer storm?
'The summer storm had been born in mid-Atlantic' answers 'Where was the summer storm born?'
Not particularly good examples, I'd say, but examples nevertheless.  The other sentences I offered that Evertype didn't comment on make the technique clearer perhaps:
'it  moved threateningly north-eastward' answers 'What moved threateningly north-eastward?'
'it moved  threateningly north-eastward' answers something like 'Did it stand still?'
'it moved  threateningly  north-eastward' answers 'How did it move?'
''it moved threateningly north-eastward ' answers 'In which direction did it move?'
Cornish word-order is powerfully flexible.  It seems to me that we should all try to exploit this to good effect and to help others to do so.  It's quite obviously counter-intuitive to people that speak English, where word-order is far less flexible.  "the storm is the focus, there's no reason to have fronted anything else" just misses the point entirely.

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:28 pm

As the person who first wrote that sentence (in English), I could argue that I'm best placed to know what I wanted it to convey, and what word order I should choose in order to achieve that.  Did it do so?  Well, yes, to my satisfaction, anyway.  The question then is: does the Cornish translation also achieve it to the author's satisfaction?  The answer is yes.
A true test of the translation (from the author's viewpoint) involves a scene in the middle of the book where the farmer forces his way into a cottage known to be occupied by the villain of the piece - only when he gets inside, he realises, from the dust and dilapidation, that no one has set foot in the place for years, even though he's seen lights and movement through the windows.  Then in the dark stairwell, an apparition begins to take shape from the dancing dust-motes in the air.  All a bit Dennis Wheatley - how would the translation cope with this?  Could it re-create an atmosphere of creeping horror?
Answer - yes it does.  Brilliantly.
The real test, though, is this:  does the Cornish translation conjure images of the scene in the mind of the reader?
Answer: Yes, it does.  Equally brilliantly.

pietercharles
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Post by pietercharles » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:42 pm

marhak said:
As the person who first wrote that sentence (in English), I could argue that I'm best placed to know what I wanted it to convey, and what word order I should choose in order to achieve that.  Did it do so?  Well, yes, to my satisfaction, anyway.  The question then is: does the Cornish translation also achieve it to the author's satisfaction?  The answer is yes.


You couldn't ask for more, marhak.  The translator's done you proud.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:59 pm

pietercharles said:

Evertype said:

pietercharles said:

I beg to differ.  Your response shows that you clearly didn't understand.  But that's nothing unusual - it's very often the case that people believe they've understood something that they clearly haven't.



It's not necessary for you to be rude and condescending, is it?



You think that's ruder and more condescending than your very own "Snottiness, your name is PieterCharles", do you? 



Nah. Mostly I offered that to you after years of your holier-than-thou attitude. Evidently you think your responses are measured and reasonable. Yet if you criticize, and someone explains, you've got a uniquely annoying way of always missing the point, twisting what the other person said around, and criticizing it, so as to make the other person look bad. And you do all of this behind a pseudonym, rank coward that you seem to be. Snotty? Your snottiness is persistent and inveterate. Well, feck it. I'm going to get back to work: making good books in good Cornish for the Revival. Go ahead and stick to your lame discourse analysis of the first sentences in a book of 62,000 words. I'd hope that you and others who claim to be fluent in Cornish would read these books—but since your agenda seems to be just to try to run us down, perhaps that's unlikely. (Oh, I forgot. I'm a humourless monkey. Your snideness is all a joke, right? When we meet, we'll embrace as brothers, and you'll clap me on the back with a great belly-laugh of friendly mirth, and buy me a pint, right?)

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:57 pm

I think he's done the Cornish language and revival proud, too, Pieter.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:11 pm

Your wish shall soon be granted. :-)(Though Arthur and Merlin are already not mentioned in Alys in Pow an Anethow, or in Adro dhe'n Bÿs in Peswar Ugans Dëdh, or in Kensa Lyver Redya.)

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