"Whedhlow Kernowek" dyllys gans Evertype

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
Karesk
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Post by Karesk » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:35 pm

Maybe someone should write a Cornish adaptation of Romeo and Juliet in which a boy who uses half-length falls in love with a girl who writes diacritics? They'd both have to die, though, I'm afraid.

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:41 pm

Oh, bugger - he's pinched my plot!

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:31 pm

No, they'd have to dîë.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:32 pm

Karesk: seriously, didn't you know that in Alys in Pow an Anethow actually has some KK text in it?

truru
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Post by truru » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:29 pm

marhak said:



Get MAGA, the Partnership and the Local Education Authority into a room and don't let them out until they've agreed and signed a definite plan with a firm time scale to be strictly adhered to.



 

Ah, if only that was really all that was needed.

Plans and time scales for getting Cornish into the classrooms will not happen until there is enough teachers and materials. Which will take years yet. There needs to be new full-time Cornish language teachers in secondary schools who speak Cornish and new primary school teachers who can speak it and know how to teach it. Or existing teachers need to both learn the language and be trained how to teach it. And not forgetting teachers for A-level and university level Cornish. Either way these teachers and materials aren't going to suddenly appear out of thin air as a result of any  hand-shaking by the CLP or the LEA.

Comprehensive teaching material aimed at schoolchildren, with teachers' supplements, in a variety of media and formats, with multiple versions catering for different age groups and skill levels, all based around the national curriculum, from beginner to advanced, that caters for reading, listening, writing and speaking, in the SWF, or any other orthography for that matter, is non-existent. Skeul an Tavas was a good first step but as far as teaching material for primary and secondary schools goes it's not very suitable.

Unless you have the know-how to create all this or are actively working to make it happen then "getting Cornish into the classrooms" is going to take a very long time.

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:08 pm

This I think it's called 'strategy'. Yes, it requires careful step by step planning, but isn't that what all those bureaucrats at County Hall, or wherever the Ed. Dept. HQ is, are paid to do? So where is the plan showing the how to train the trainers to train the teachers to teach the kids; to recruit or outsource the teams to produce the materials etc. They can look at the IoM and see where the bottlenecks will arise, or at the great expansion of Gaelic teaching in Scotland over the past 20 or so years, it's not like its never been done before. I thought they had a strategy for Cornish, unveiled with much self-congratulation a few years ago, out of which the dreaded Process grew. If there is/was no meaningful plan, especially with regard to Cornish in education, then why did anyone bother with the Process in the first place? Someone please explain. I was always told that the prize for being good and accepting a compromise spelling was that Cornish would then be rolled out into the schools. People were actually saying (check the archives here and on CO) things like, "if we agree by [such a date] the language can be in the schools by the next academic year". Who's been fooling whom?

 

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:17 pm

Poor Keith. You really don't understand engagement, do you?

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:03 am

factotum said:

The third approach, a very cunning one at that, was Williams' in CT and later. Let's pretend that MC really was pronounced in the Nancian ad hoc manner (for all I know he may have believed this). And lets then rewite the history of the language to "make it so". Well his bluff has been called, his theories don't stand up, although they have created much confusion in the minds of ordinary learners. Was this his real intention?

 



 

His 'real intention' is hard to divine, and the periodic shifts of rationale make it even harder. The only consistent theme is an unremitting hostility to normal Recent Modern Cornish. He seems to want to wipe the slate clean and start again.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:55 am

factotum said:

The only literary output I'm aware of is that he translated quite a number of songs, a very important contribution to the popularity of the Revival. (This was when he was still in the mainstream). Later, after several had become popular, almost 'traditional' amongst us, he attempted to suppress them by forbidding the words to be reproduced on song sheets etc. (not permanent publications, but the things that were run-off and handed round at gatherings). This IMO was about as mean-spirited as you can get, some of them had even to be retranslated.

 



 

He did produce some important translations, and his Cornish rendering of Camborne Hill became the canonical version in the language. However, his most important contribution was undoubtedly the corpus of poetry and song that he produced. While i respect his artistic integrity in withdrawing the UC texts, I cannot help deploring the decision. The versions in Gendallian Modern Cornish are inferior - although, as we would expect, his original poems in the new spelling are as superb as ever.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:02 am

David said:

One can debate the value of Nicholas Williams translating 20th and 21st Century English prose into  Neo-16th Century Cornish,

 



 

It gives us an excellent *starred form, how Cornish might have evolved through uninterrupted usage from a hypothetical Biblical translation in the Tudor period. However, even in NJAW's restrained version of the exuberantly macaronic Tudor prose, the otherwise highly enjoyable style presents itself to speakers of Modern Cornish today as spattered with gratuitous anglicisms. At times, it can appear (unintentionally, I presume) comical. NJAW might like to think about this, and consider a slight adjustment in approach.

 

 
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:48 pm

N. Boson, no less, stated that he believed the Cornish of his time to be "imperfect in many words which must be supplied from the Latin or the English" indeed in his Cornish version he actually wrote a dael bose gwrez aman "that need to be made up". He adds a couple of lines later buz therama wheelaz en skreefma (mar mere drelama) tho gurra an geerna a treneuhan ra dismiggia gun tavaz ny senges tho rerol. Buz 'therama [o] hwilaz  e'n skrif-ma (mar ver der allama) dhu worra an ger-na a-dunewan [a] ra dismygya 'gun tavaz-ney senjez dhu re erell --- Mez yth ezov vy ow hwilaz y'n skrif-ma (mar veur dell allav vy) dhe worre an ger[yow]-na a-denewenn a wra dismygi agan tavez ni synzyz dhe re erell. "But I seek in this text (as far as I am able) to set aside those words which demonstrate that our language is beholden to others". So if avoiding blatent loans was good enough for Nick Boson, why isn't it good enough for Nick Williams?

-----

To be fair, the vast majority of rank and file UCers did not attack anybody, they simply subscribed to AT for its newsletter, ran the odd class, sat on the Kesva, supported the Kesva's examination scheme, published nothing really, and simply prefered for their own private use to stick to what they'd learned. Hardly any were especially active in the movement. However a fairly small group of malcontents chose to use the reformed AT as a platform from which to attack Ken/Kesva/Kowethas and so institutionalised 'the split'. Of course they were the perfect gift for those sections of the bureaucracy who wanted nothing better than to tie the Revival up in knots. All they needed to do was recognise this splinter equally with the mainstream and then sit back and watch the fireworks.

 

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:17 pm

Boson's avoiding loanwords in an example sentence is not the same thing as avoiding them in ordinary speech or writing.

In my first review of George's Gerlyver Kres, I pointed out that George suppressed some attested loanwords in favour of neologisms of his own. Of course, he kept many loanwords. He just got rid of the ones he didn't like. There's neither rhyme no reason for his choice. And he is free to make a choice. But I considered it inappropriate for his dictionary to say that it was comprehensive when in fact it was not. (It claimed to include "all known words of the traditional language", a claim which was demonstrably false.

If Nicholas chooses to use words attested in the texts, then he is only imitating the native speakers, who used those same words.

It is pretty stupid of both you and Tim to try to mock Nicholas for modelling his Cornish on the Cornish of native speakers. German borrows words. French borrows words though they pretend not to. Breton borrows words. Irish borrows words. Gaelic borrows words. Manx borrows words. Welsh borrows words. Traditional Cornish (Old, Middle, and Late) borrowed words.

Icelandic does not borrow words, and all Icelanders like that practice. If you want to play with a puristic Brythonic conlang, go ahead and follow the Icelandic model. Strip out all the Latin and English and French loanwords from Cornish, and feel good about how "pure" and "Brythonic" it looks.

But it won't be Cornish.

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:27 pm

David said:

Anselm said:



David said:


One can debate the value of Nicholas Williams translating 20th and 21st Century English prose into  Neo-16th Century Cornish,

 



 

It gives us an excellent *starred form, how Cornish might have evolved through uninterrupted usage from a hypothetical Biblical translation in the Tudor period. However, even in NJAW's restrained version of the exuberantly macaronic Tudor prose, the otherwise highly enjoyable style presents itself to speakers of Modern Cornish today as spattered with gratuitous anglicisms. At times, it can appear (unintentionally, I presume) comical. NJAW might like to think about this, and consider a slight adjustment in approach.

 

 



Apparently in neo-traditional Cornish, Union street in Plymouth is  really 'Stret an Kesunyans', (there is a diacritic there somewhere,) which  is kind of like translating 'Rue des Matelots' in Paris as 'Sailor Street '.  Yet traditionalists always complain about translating English place names whether in Cornwall or England, unless attested in the traditional language . (it should be noted that in neo-Traditional Cornish, Plymouth remains , and is not morphed into Aberplym)
 

There seems to be inconstancy here.  



 

It would depend. Where a place is part of the community's life and consciousness, then it's natural for a name to be made part of the language informed by that consciousness. 'Aberplymm' has been that city's normal name in Cornish for years, and I'd not be surprised to hear its main streets and other features named in the language.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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