"Whedhlow Kernowek" dyllys gans Evertype

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
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Eddie-C
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Post by Eddie-C » Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:34 pm

Actually, Tibm/Timm, 'Aberplymm' has only been part of its name to those of the fake-Cornish KK idiolect. Cornish writers who use that name prefer to spell it 'Aberplym'.

 

The gratuitous terminal double consonant suggests either gemination (which afaik is never heard) or pre-occlusion (and who the feck ever hear /Aberplybm/?!)

 

Silly boy.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:03 pm

Craig said in Form and Content in Revived Cornish:

The Cornish Language Board, not only in its present Kemyn persona but also under its previous Unified Cornish identity, has already made the mistake introducing into its recommended and established place-name forms elements that did not exist in historical record. The outstanding example of this is its use of the element Aber- to denote “estuary, river mouth”. Although commonly found, with that meaning, in Wales and less frequently in Brittany, not a single Cornish place-name can be shown to contain this element. The only record of its use anywhere in Cornish is in the Old Cornish Vocabulary where it is glossed as: “confluence, whirlpool, gulf”.

Granted that the use of the word to rename Falmouth as Aberfal and Plymouth as Aberplym(m) has been practised for more than half a century but should such a glaring error be condoned by perpetuating it? Cornish has two words for “estuary”: logh, which normally denotes one that retains deep water at all tides or a ria; and heyl1 for those that display extensive flats of sand or mud at low water. In the case of Falmouth, the historical name of the river tends to be Fala, so a constructed name such as Loghfala might be rather more appropriate. Better still (and bearing in mind that Falmouth did not have a Cornish name), historical origins might be considered. The development of Falmouth as the town and port of that name occurred in the 17th century, following the granting of a Charter to Sir Peter Killigrew by Charles II. The seat of the Killigrews, whose estates covered much of the land upon which Falmouth developed, was Arwenack House. To establish a Cornish name for Falmouth that is firmly anchored in history and linked with its development, Arwennek (or ar Wennek) would be far more appropriate.

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:07 pm

factotum said:

 I thought they had a strategy for Cornish, unveiled with much self-congratulation a few years ago, out of which the dreaded Process grew.

 



 

They did indeed have a strategy, and executed it with impressive efficiency.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:10 pm

factotum said:

. So if avoiding blatent loans was good enough for Nick Boson, why isn't it good enough for Nick Williams?

 



 

Again, it depends. Some loans have settled in and are an integral part of the language. Others haven't. It's a matter of feeling for the language, of knowing instinctively from constant usage what will and what won't jar on the ear and eye of the ordinary Cornish-speaker.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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factotum
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Post by factotum » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:42 am

They did indeed have a strategy, and executed it with impressive efficiency.

I'm sure you understand these areas better than I do. Could you or anyone else here please explain clearly :

1. Exactly what obligations the Government has with regard to promoting the Cornish language;

2. What practical actions they committed themselves to undertake to achieve the above;

3. What bodies were supposed to deliver said actions;

4. What has been done so far?

We can then evaluate their plans with respect to (a) whether in the light of experience elsewhere they are likely to strengthen the languages, and (b) what signs there are that anything is actually being done.

 

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:53 am

factotum said:

They did indeed have a strategy, and executed it with impressive efficiency.

I'm sure you understand these areas better than I do. Could you or anyone else here please explain clearly :

1. Exactly what obligations the Government has with regard to promoting the Cornish language;

2. What practical actions they committed themselves to undertake to achieve the above;

3. What bodies were supposed to deliver said actions;

4. What has been done so far?

We can then evaluate their plans with respect to (a) whether in the light of experience elsewhere they are likely to strengthen the languages, and (b) what signs there are that anything is actually being done.

 



 

An interesting idea might be to put these questions formally to the relevant bodies, starting with The Partnership.

In practical terms, the objectives were to prevent Cornish from gaining an effective foothoold in education and the public service, and to disrupt the Cornish-speaking community (now, happily, rapidly rcovering). Mission accomplished (although, of course, it could have been a great deal worse for us but for the diligence of a few excellent people).
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:10 am

David said:

One can debate the value of Nicholas Williams translating 20th and 21st Century English prose into  Neo-16th Century Cornish,

 



 

Now that he's flexed his prose muscles, as it were, we might hope that he would go on to produce some original work.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:16 am

He has.  Or didn't you notice that he won an award last year for original poetry in Cornish? Which, if I recall correctly, he wrote in both KS and SWF.

When it comes to translation, I can't think of anyone else who could take the weird and wonderful poetry of Lewis Carroll, translate it into Cornish, and get it to scan and rhyme.  He succeeds several times in 'Alys in Pow an Anethow'.  He also did it with the two verses of the 'Belerion Prophecy' in my book 'The Lyonesse Stone' (translated as 'Jowal Lethesow').

Speaking of which, I had to give a talk, followed by book-signing, about the trilogy, and the recent publication of the third book, 'The Tinners' Way'; over in St Ives on Friday.  During this I read a passage from 'The Lyonesse Stone', then the same passage from 'Jowal Lethesow'.  There was tremendous interest in the Cornish translation of the book, especially from those who already had the Eng. lang. version.

Amazingly, not one person asked which variety of Cornish had been used.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:38 am

Tim droned on:
Now that he's flexed his prose muscles, as it were, we might hope that he would go on to produce some original work.Translation is a creative and original activity, Tim. Of course as Craig has noted, Nicholas regularly writes original poetry for competitions, and usually wins. (I believe I heard that one year they asked him not to participate, because it wasn't fair to other poets. How low we set our sights.)

Not everyone is a novelist, not should try to be. It is insulting of you to tell Nicholas that translation isn't good enough, that he shouldn't do what he's doing, but rather he should do what you (who never have anything to offer him but snideness and insult) suggest?

Where are your 200,000 words, Tim?

Begrudger.

Palores
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Post by Palores » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:52 pm

Evertype said:

And I didn't want to wait until 2013




 ..... before making money from publishing books in an orthography that is intended to pass for Cornish.

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Anselm
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Post by Anselm » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:25 pm

marhak said:

He has.  Or didn't you notice that he won an award last year for original poetry in Cornish?



 

Yes. That was why I expressed the hope that, having (as it were) flexed his prose muscles, he would do more work in that medium. In the Sixties, before he succumbed to discouragement in the face of the hidebound apathy that drove many of us to active dissent in the Seventies, he wrote some very good fiction and reportage. It would be good if he were, even so many years later, to resume his original work in those areas.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:57 pm

Palores whined:
Evertype said:And I didn't want to wait until 2013
 ..... before making money from publishing books in an orthography that is intended to pass for Cornish.What splendid begrudgery!

Ken George used to accuse me of purely fiscal concerns, too. I always thought it was peculiar since he of course was selling his books. Perhaps he felt threatened when faced with people who had actual linguistic training. It would make sense. When he was Linguist To The Cornish Revival he could bedazzle lots of folks with his theories about "English influence" on Cornish orthography, sounds now completely foreign to every learner of Cornish, and all the rest of the guff that maketh Common Cornish.

As for you snide little jab that our orthography, which is based on the SWF with some corrections, is somehow "not Cornish", well, all I can say is that if you really believe that George's Komputerised Kornish, which suppresses attested words, changes attested morphology, and eschews traditional orthographic forms, then all you have to do not to sully your eyes with our publications is not to buy them.

What gives the lie to what you've written, Palores, is the fact that our orthography is based firmly on the corpus. That's just a fact you'll have to live with as you smile smugly to yourself thinking yourself better than the scribes at Glasney.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:57 pm

Tim, I really don’t think you are in much of a position to make any suggestions to Nicholas at all.

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Evertype
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Post by Evertype » Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:00 pm

Time you got off the dissent, Tim, and came back to the mainstream, isn't it?

emmessemm
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Post by emmessemm » Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:49 pm

marhak said:
 Dalleth was excellent when it was running, but it wasn't around for long enough - we need another Dalleth

Movyans Skolyow Meythrin

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