Spellyans

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
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Evertype
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Re: Spellyans

Post by Evertype » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:22 pm

Morvil wrote:Hi! Speakers of Revived Late Cornish (RLC) pronounce the diminutive suffix as [ɪk] or [ɪg]. The SWF spelling flehik is fine and serves its purpose.
It's unecessarily complicated because there are other final unstressed syllables with the same sound that are spelt y. So the learner has no way of predicting what letter to write.

I certainly know this from having acted as co-editor of the two SWF editions of Skeul an Tavas. Over and over again we found that we were unable to spell by sound—we had to look things up in a KK dictionary to know how Ken had "reconstructed" them. The burden of this on the orthography is profound and most unsatisfactory, because the rationale for whether KK has i or y is not something that can be predicted. (One should certainly not have to know British -îkâ before one can spell Cornish.

I would not say that flehik, being so arbitrary, is "fine" and "serves its purpose". It proved a stumbling block even for a number of people who have some skill at Cornish. And who are well enough able to appreciate the value of using the letter i and y in various contexts—where there is value to be obtained from choosing one over the other.
Only a singular new formation flehesik based on the plural flehesigow occurs in the RLC materials I have, and it is based on an attestation from Lhuyd and Pryce who most likely read it in the texts OM <flehysyggow> and PC <flehesyggow>. The diminutive for "little son" meppik occurs widely though, because it is found in JCH and it's pronounced [ˈmɛpɪg] or [ˈmɛpɪk].
We would write flehesyk [flɛˈhɛzᵻk] pl flehesygow [ˌflɛhəˈzɪɡoʊ] (since, once again, there is no long vowel in *[ˌflɛhəˈziːɡoʊ]. Similarly we write meppyk [ˈmɛpᵻk].

carrek
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Re: Spellyans

Post by carrek » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:26 pm

Evertype wrote:
carrek wrote:But is it [ə] in LC generally?
Is what [ə] in LC generally?
The vowel in the diminutive suffix -ik.
Evertype wrote:
'y' is used as an umbrella graph in termyn, lebmyn, benyn, etc: [ᵻ] for MC and [ə] for LC. But how do us LC speakers know not to do the same for flehyk if it is only ever [ᵻ]?
Both [ᵻ] and [ə] are flavours of schwa. The first is schwi, the second schwa. What is the problem? I may say spoken as [ˈspoʊk̵ᵻn] and you may say it as [ˈspoʊk̵ən].
My point is that RLC speakers may treat KS flehyk the same as KS termyn, lebmyn and benyn, reading y as [ə]. This would go against RLC pronunciation as Dan has pointed out, meaning that use of -yk would cause ambiguity for RLC speakers who might end up saying [ək] instead of [ɪk].

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Marhak
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Re: Spellyans

Post by Marhak » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:41 pm

I think it would have been non-ambiguous had the diminutive suffix been spelt - yk. In SWF (and KK) <y> never represents the long vowel. Same with melin, kegin and several other words. Why change them from melyn, kegyn, at all? I never saw the sense in changing the older melyn (mill) and melen (yellow) to melin and melyn respectively. It seems so needless and so confusing to those who had used those older spellings for decades.

carrek
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Re: Spellyans

Post by carrek » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:45 pm

There's only two solutions to the problem:

1) have variants for menydh~menedh, termyn~termen, benyn~benen, and spell the diminutive ending -yk: flehyk

2) have a single form for menydh, termyn, benyn, and spell the diminutive ending -ik: flehik.

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Anselm
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Re: Spellyans

Post by Anselm » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:50 pm

'NESSA KUNTELLES AN BAGAS YETHONIEK'

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?create ... 3812455723

Nebes devnydh redya didhan!
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
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Cornish Pirates

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Anselm
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Re: Spellyans

Post by Anselm » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:02 am

Da yw genev gweles bones an oll unnver genev.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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factotum
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Re: Spellyans

Post by factotum » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:10 pm

Tim, lavar dhyn ni mar pleg pyth porran yw hemma oll. Ny allav (ha ny vynnav) gwelez an folenn Facebook kampoellyz genes a-ugh.

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Anselm
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Re: Spellyans

Post by Anselm » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:03 am

Kovnotyansow Nessa Kuntelles an Bagas Yethonieth - y'gan yeth ni, bys ma na leveris tus an anvi tra vyth rag na wodhons i Kernewek dre vras. Yma war ow folenn Eneblyver. Y fia da genev klywes dha omworthyp - lavarow didhan gans Ninja!
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Anselm
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Re: Spellyans

Post by Anselm » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:52 am

Ottomma'n re esa (poneyl nag esa) eno ...

'Dydh ha le

An 11ves mis Gortheren 2007, yn Ostel Alverton yn Truru.



Devedhys (yn ordyr an esedhvaow)

Mark Gardiner (rag gorra an keskows yn-rag), Elizabeth Stewart, Jenefer Lowe, Ben Bruch, Ken George, Hilary Shaw, Frances Bennett, Neil Kennedy, Nicholas Williams, Rod Lyon



Diharasow

Albert Bock (esa ow studhya Bretonek yn Breten Vyghan), Dick Gendall, Tim Hambly, Julyan Holmes (neb o klav), Polin Prys (esa yn Brazil).'
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Anselm
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Re: Spellyans

Post by Anselm » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:53 am

Hag ottomma dalleth an kewskowsow:

'Kynsa sedhek



Jenefer: An Desedhek a omguntellas yn mis-Meurth. Yma dhedha a-dro dhe 200 profyans dhe vos hwithrys. Ny sewenis an wiasva sevys rag an Bagas Yethoniethek. An Desedhek a wra derivas hanter-termyn orth penn an mis ma, rag bos dedhlys. Dever an Bagas Yethoniethek yw (a) gorthybi orth an Desedhek ha (b) profya tybyansow y honan.



Mark: Res yw dhe buphuni bos kortes. Difennys yw goderri kows den arall. Nyns eus rol-negys, mes eus neppyth a vynn nebonan y sordya?



Ken: Res yw dhyn hwithra kovnotyansow agan kynsa kuntelles.



Ben: Ny glywis travyth diworth an Desedhek. Fatell yllyn gorthybi dhedha mar ny wrons kestava orthyn?



Rod: (an keth tra)



Neil: (an keth tra). Gwell via dhyn gavoes kessoylyans.



Nicholas: Yw agan dever gul kessoylyans, po dewis furv vyw?



Jenefer: Nag an eyl nag y gila. Res yw mires orth convergence ha divergence.



Frances: Yma tus ow kovynn a-dro dhe’n Argerdh.



Hilary: Dyskadores ov dre 24 blydhen. Pyth yw single written form? Pyth yw savla an gramer? Yma’n keth gramer dhe KU ha dhe KK. Res yw dhe’n taves bos es lowr dhe vos dyskys.





Neil: An dadhel ma yw a-dro dhe lytherennans hepken.





Rod: Nebes an gramer yn Kernewek Diwedhes yw kevys yn Kernewek Kres.

'
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Anselm
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Re: Spellyans

Post by Anselm » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:55 am

Ha tamm hwath ...

'

Jenefer: An Desedhek a garsa godhvos pandr’a brederowgh a-dro dhe KS ha KD. Pan vo dewisys unn furv, y fydh hwath kummyas gul devnydh a furvow erell. Nebes profyansow a lever “Res yw dhe’n unn furv bos skwir” ha re erell a lever “Res yw holya bodh an brassa rann a dus”. “Ny yll furv vyth bos perfydh” a lever an Desedhek.





Rod: Pyth yw skwir? (What is “correct”?)





Jenefer: Ny allav gorthybi. Poes yw dhe’n Desedhek demographics; hemm yw piw ha py lies a gews pub furv.





Rod: Res yw sywya bodh an brassa rann (majority).





Ben: An brassa rann a biw? Pub Kernow? Pub Kernewegor?





Jenefer: Herwydh an Desedhek, poesek yw an dhyskadoryon nowydh. I a lever bos dyffrans bras yn nivel an profyansow. Res yw mires orth galloes an movyans dhe avonsya.





Hilary: Rag gul klass soedhogel, yth yw res kavoes hwegh studhyer. Y’n kynsa y’m bo tus diworth Aberfal ha Pennrynn hepken. Lemmyn y teu tus diworth tylleryow pella (Rysrudh ha S. Ostell). Nyns yw demographics dhe les.





Neil: Res yw perthi kov nag eus kowsoryon hengovek. Nyns eus lies dyskador. Ny yllyn kelli dyskadoryon.





Frances: Nyns ov dyskadores y’n eur ma, kynth en seulabrys.





Nicholas: Tus a gar an pyth a aswonnons. Ny garons treylya. Mes y fydh lies den ow tyski Kernewek rag an kynsa gweyth.





Ben: Res via dhe dhyskadoryon treylya aga furv a Gernewek.'
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Anselm
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Re: Spellyans

Post by Anselm » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:58 am

Ottomma diwedh an Sedhek na. Prys hansel lemmyn!

'Hilary: Yw fleghes mar boesek? Gwell via dyski dhe devysogyon, neb a allsa gorra aga fleghes dhe dhyski.





Nicholas: Nyns yw henna gwir. Iwerdhonek yw euthek kales ha dyskys yn-trog. Yma nebes skolyow oll-Iwerdhonek.





Jenefer: Agan dever yw gul taklow y’n skolyow. Dhe les o an tri dydh yn Fer Krowswynn. Dell glywav, yma hwithrans gwrys gans Pennskol East Anglia, ow kovynn diworth 650 flogh pandr’a brederons a-dro dhe Gernewek. A wrug nebonan y weles?





Hilary: An gostenn gynsa a dal bos tevysogyon.





Ken: Ni re beu ow tyski dhe devysogyon dre dhegblydhenyow. Kyn fynnen dyski moy dhe fleghes, nyns yw es pan eus National Curriculum Sowsnek yn Kernow, hag a vydh dyghtys gans an Governans kepar dell ve rann a Bow Sows.





Mark: Py furv a Gernewek a dennsa tus an moyha?





Ken: An fleghes a yll tenna aga herens.





Nicholas: Hemm a hwer yn Ebrow.





Hilary: Kernewek a vydh kewsys yn pymp kevandir.





Mark: Py rag?





Frances: Dre goynturi.





Neil: Unn furv yw rag puphuni. Lyvrow yn furv nowydh a yll bos gwrys yn pur uskis. Nyns yw an lyvrow a’gan beus gwiw rag fleghes. Nebes fleghes y’n skolyow Diwan a nagh Bretonek dhe 15 bloedh. Nyns yw da Bretonek gans fleghes y’n skolyow an eglos.





Frances: Da yw dhyn dyski diworth powyow erell. Yma hwath le rag Kernewek bos dyskys yn skolyow a-denewenn.





Rod: Nyns yw da dyski Kernewek heb keyndir. Res yw kavoes moy ages “dyski rag dyski”. Pan vo gorrys Kernewek y’n skolyow, an fleghes a dreyl an taves.





Nicholas: Hemma yw hwarvedhys gans Ebrow.'
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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