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Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:28 am
by Karesk
Anselm wrote:Karesk - na woslow orth an gowleveryas na!
My a vynn prena dew binta dhis, ha ty a gyv bones Mer an Plas.

Profyansow erell nebonan? Yma dhe bup den y bris.

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:24 pm
by Anselm
Marhak - that paltry fellow Earl Richard (was he really from Montana, and called Earl E. Richard?) just couldn't stump up the fee for the coronation. I cut out the middleman, and crowned myself. Therefore I'm the Holy Roman Emperor. Therefore you have to believe me.

P.S. What was the date of the sea voyage on which Dick spake unto you on this matter, and what were his exact words? Was it the time that you've told us that one man told you that another man was an enemy of Cornwall?

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:25 pm
by Anselm
Kares - tri finta, hag y kevydh bones Marghek Palasek.

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:57 pm
by carrek
factotum wrote:I could swear Dick says "tiek" rather than LC (and Lhyud and Boson's) "tiak". It comes twice near the start of the tale. Also I don't seem to be hearing regular preocclusion, but there is a bit of echo on the recording which might be masking it. What do others think? It looks like he's still carrying on old UC habits (not surprising all things considered).
Eus scovornow dhis?

0:18 obma
0:19 kibmias
0:26 An vogalen ew schwa en leveryans diwedhes. Che a wor hebma seulabres, Keith.
0:37 vedo why
0:40 vargidnias
0:46 obma
0:55 me a vedn
1:11 obma
1:28 lebma
1:32 vargidnias
1:37 obma
2:02 lebmen
2:21 e gibmias
2:22 obma
2:33 kibmias

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:09 pm
by Karesk
Richard Gendall made a record called Tam Kernewek some time in the 70s. The first word you hear when you play it is very distinctly "Tabm" and he continuse to pre-occlude regularly throughout. Of course, other aspects of his pronunciation have changed a lot.

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:09 pm
by Evertype
carrek wrote:
factotum wrote:I could swear Dick says "tiek" rather than LC (and Lhyud and Boson's) "tiak". It comes twice near the start of the tale. Also I don't seem to be hearing regular preocclusion, but there is a bit of echo on the recording which might be masking it. What do others think? It looks like he's still carrying on old UC habits (not surprising all things considered).
Eus scovornow dhis?
Actually Keith's problem is that he just doesn't understand that final unstressed syllables have schwa in Cornish, and that this is perfectly OK.

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:36 pm
by Palores
final unstressed syllables have schwa in Cornish
This myth needs to be stamped on. The evidence from the texts does not support it.

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:48 pm
by carrek
Palores wrote:
final unstressed syllables have schwa in Cornish
This myth needs to be stamped on. The evidence from the texts does not support it.
Nag ew myth ow tuchya an leveryans diwedhes (hengovek po arnowyth). Dhe bart an leveryans cres, nag ellam leverel.

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:57 pm
by carrek
Me a wel dr'ujy Keith ow cowsel a-dro dhe'n tavas en Sowsnek arta... pan wrug ev croffolas a-dro dhe dus erel ow cul hedna... udn rewl ragdho ev hag udn rewl rag pubonen aral...

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:08 pm
by Marhak
Keith might have a lot more credibility if he actually published in Cornish, or contributed to it in some meaningful way. But he doesn't.

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:09 pm
by Marhak
That's not to say that he doesn't possess talent, but if he does, then it's talent being wasted.

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:34 pm
by spelly
Yma'n flehes ow qwary.

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:36 pm
by factotum
1. There is no evidence for schwa in LC (or indeed any period), certainly not as a phoneme. Obviously Cornish speakers may have mumbled at times like everyone else. Lhuyd, who you keep insisting "heard actual native speakers" had a special sign for schwa in his system and he NEVER uses it in final unstressed Cornish syllables. Therefore either (a) schwa is a myth, or (b) Lhuyd cannot be considered a reliable witness. As I've said before, but you will dodge the issue, you just can't have it both ways -- I.e. Lhuyd can be relied upon when he supports your preconceived ideas, but dismissed when he doesn't.

Lhuyd's also rather erratic in writing preocclusion in JCH, suggesting that it was not a clear-cut phenomon, but simply one way of realising or perceiving a distinct double /mm/, /nn/. Are you sure you're hearing Gendall say [bm, dn] rather than [mm, nn] distinctly proniounced? I'm certainly not, and I don't think the recording is good enough to settle the question by objective analysis of the sounds.

Gendall definitely says [tIEk], not either [tIak] or [tI@k] --- I've measured the effing formants.

Isn't it odd how the people who seem to want me to produce material in Cornish are exactly those persons who are ready to mock anything I say or do. If the world wants Cornic conlangs and Muddle Cornish, well and good, but I certainly won't make such a mockery of the language.

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:11 pm
by Karesk
It seems to me that there are gradations possible between "hem-ma" and "heb-ma", that presumably being how pre-occlusion came to exist. In Gendall's old record, the bm and dn sounds much more distinct than in his recent ones, but he now transcribes them that way, not as mm and nn. So whatever you make of his pronunciation, I don't think you can account for it as an unconscious relapse into old habits.

Re: Enys Tresour dyllys in Kernowek

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:18 pm
by carrek
factotum wrote:Lhuyd's also rather erratic in writing preocclusion in JCH, suggesting that it was not a clear-cut phenomon, but simply one way of realising or perceiving a distinct double /mm/, /nn/. Are you sure you're hearing Gendall say [bm, dn] rather than [mm, nn] distinctly proniounced? I'm certainly not, and I don't think the recording is good enough to settle the question by objective analysis of the sounds.
Ea sur o'ma dr'ellam y glowes.
factotum wrote:Gendall definitely says [tIEk], not either [tIak] or [tI@k] --- I've measured the effing formants.
Na, ma ev ow leverel [tI@k].
factotum wrote:Isn't it odd how the people who seem to want me to produce material in Cornish are exactly those persons who are ready to mock anything I say or do.
Na wres che tra veth.
factotum wrote:If the world wants Cornic conlangs and Muddle Cornish, well and good, but I certainly won't make such a mockery of the language.
Na wra hedna dha lettya dhort scrifa Shaggek, secund brassa mockyans an tavas (kens an scrifa-composter marow Saundrek heb mar).

Ha ma ev whath ow scrifa en Sowsnek!