Croust or Crib?

A new forum dedicated to Kernewek - the Cornish language, Cornish culture and the history of the Duchy of Cornwall
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P_Trembath
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by P_Trembath » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:34 pm

Oh no, we're not going to have a dialect war now, are we? :mrgreen:
Everyone, Cornish or otherwise, has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small; no one is too old or too young to do something.

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Marhak
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by Marhak » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:32 pm

War of the Dialects ("Extoiminate!")

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Marhak
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by Marhak » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:35 pm

Nance gives the word "crowst" as being borrowed from Middle English, which borrowed it from Old French. It occurs in Origo Mundi, and I don't think that a genuine Cornish origin can be entirely ruled out.

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Evertype
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by Evertype » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:49 pm

Many loanwords appear in Origo Mundi.

CJenkin
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by CJenkin » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:26 pm

Is there any reason why words can't have been transmitted directly from Old french to Middle Cornish and not via middle English?

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Marhak
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by Marhak » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:06 pm

No reason at all why not. It's more than likely to have done just that under Norman administration. The first few earls were Bretons, who had many Breton men unde rtheir command. Many would have been bilingual in Brythonic and Norman-French. Norman administrators were doing their best to squash the English language, but they did not treat the Celtic languages in that way. So, yes, Conan - I think that scenario is the more probable of the two.

Carbilly
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by Carbilly » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:18 pm

Middle English survives in strange places. Ulster-Scots is largely Middle English, and the Scots pronunciation of house (hoose), etc., preserves the ME vowel before the English vowel shift.
Yeh, I seem to remember reading something back-along about the lowland Scots dialect (''lallans''?) consisting of more 'Saxon' terms than anything else. Words like 'kirk' and 'nicht' originate from old German, which I suppose is logical if you think that the original Saxon settlement went up as far as Edinburgh.
Kind of ironic that they promote 'Lallans' as a means of differentiating themselves from the sassenachs, while preserving a more original form of english. :)
(Some linguistic expert will now shoot me down in flames ;) )

Carbilly
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by Carbilly » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:23 pm

Incidentally out of interest, crib is used as in crib room in the Australian mining industry stemming from its Cornish influence
In Broken Hill, NSW, Australia - an area full of Cornish miners - there's a cafe called ''The Crib Cuddy''

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Ellery
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by Ellery » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:06 pm

It's interesting to note that there are more Cornish words in Australian English than there are Irish.

Fossick and Nugget are both Cornish.

Some Australian Aboriginal peoples use Cornish dialect words because they were taught English by Cornish Methodists and miners.

http://books.google.com/books?ei=IY5eTd ... rch_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?ei=1I5eTe ... rch_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?id=oCx0D0 ... ts&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?ei=o5VeTc ... rch_anchor

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GanO
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by GanO » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:48 pm

That's not the only Cornish influence in Australia, as I found out just today. While Texans may fondly imagine that "everything's bigger in Texas" (including delusions of grandeur—rather like Tybm-'n'-Keeth's KK stattystykks, ackshewly!) the Aussies have boldly gone ahead and created over 150 world-beating BIG THINGS. These include The Giant Mango, The Big Prawn and (my favourite) Larry the Lobster (who features in one of my forthcoming books as 'Larry an Legest Bras'!). There's a fairly complete, illustrated list of these Antipodean Extravaganzas on Wikipedia.

What, you may ask, has this to do with Cornwall? Well, one of these BIG THINGS is named Map Kernow, aka Map the Miner, to celebrate the Cornish miners who worked in Kapunda, S. Australia. This giant seemingly stands some 26 feet (8 metres) tall, a fitting representation of Cornwall's true stature in the world!
Gwask an Orlewen
Dyller yn Kernewek Gwyr
- = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
"An Gwyr a'gas delyrf." Jow.8:32
"Dyllen dampnys kyn fen!"

JenniferA
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by JenniferA » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:24 pm

May I just come in on the assertion that Croust is not used in Penwith?

I can assure you that it is - and has been - used.

I would believe that most Mounts Bay farming families (the right side of the Mount!) would use (have used) the word 'Croust'.

Certainly my family has. I grew up using the word 'Croust'. My mother - from an old Gulval farming family - always used the word 'Croust' and 'Crib' is news to me.

Does anyone around Penzance use the word 'Crib"?

Jennifer

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Marhak
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by Marhak » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:20 am

Crib was often used in Falmouth. I've heard both words used around St Just, croust being the most common expression.

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Mark
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by Mark » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:21 pm

JenniferA wrote:May I just come in on the assertion that Croust is not used in Penwith?

Does anyone around Penzance use the word 'Crib"?

Jennifer
I don't think anyone said it wasn't used in Penwith.

I said Penzance. In my experience I've never heard 'croust' always 'crib'. My friends, people I work with, etc. all PZ, all use 'crib' or as I said, down Pendeen way - 'mossel'.
Last edited by Mark on Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Anselm
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Re: Croust or Crib?

Post by Anselm » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:10 am

I've heard 'crib' more than 'croust' in the North, but feel a certain attraction to 'croust'.
Anselm

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