BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

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Evertype
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Evertype » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:45 pm

"Avoyd drog-whansow an yowynkneth, mès gwra sewya ewnder, fëdh, kerensa ha cres, warbarth gans oll an re-na a vo ow kelwel gans colon lân wàr an Arlùth. Gwra avoydya contraversytas gocky ha dylês. Te a wor contraversytas dhe dhenethy strif. Ny dal dhe servont vëth a’n Arlùth bos strîvor. Y gonversacyon a dal bos hegar tro ha pùbonen. Ev a res bos descador dâ hag a berthyans hir. Y tal dhodho desky gans clorder an re-na, nag yw unver ganso. Re wrauntyo Duw martesen y dhe godha in edrek, ha dhe aswon an gwiryoneth."

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factotum
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by factotum » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:06 pm

Muddle Cornish? Or maybe the Cornish equivalent of Franglais?

For example, the sound /o/ (later > /u/ maybe) is written "o" in "a wor" and "dhe godha", but "ù" in "arlùth"; The sound written "dh" (which is not of course 'traditional') in "dhodho" and "fëdh" is represented by "th" in "arlùth" and "gwiryoneth", but "th" also stands for the unvoiced sound in "vëth" and "warbarth"; the letter "e" represents /I/ in "te" and "descador", /E/ in "ev" and "edrek", and /i/ *and* /Ej/ in "dhenethy", two values within the same word(!) (written in Middle Cornish "dynythy"), yet /I/ is spelled "y" in "ny" and "yowynkneth", although "y" can also stand for /i/ in "y dhe godha" 'they fall', although there is no hesitation in using 'unhistoric' "i" for /i/ in "strif" and "hir". And I could go on, but that should be enough.

Not only is the modern reader presented with many of the shortcomings of the traditional Middle Cornish texts, devices introduced to remove these problems, such as the use of "i", "dh", "oe" are either ignored or used in some sort of ideosyncratic apparently random fashion, plus the unpopular and unnecessary diacritics. In addition some Late Cornish features seem to be imported anachronistically alongside Middle Cornish features lost before the C16.

As someone who has spent a great deal of time working with the original texts and with a knowledge of the comparative background, I can for the most part untangle many of the ambiguities. But this is hardly the case for the 'normal' user of the language, less still for a beginner. When a person is drowning you throw them a lifebelt, not a millstone.

If this text is a sample of Williams' Bible, then I can only conclude that it has been designed to confound and damage the language revival. Who apart from Everson is willing to use it. Who indeed apart from its author is able to use it? One would have to second-guess its authors' idiosyncratic innovations. At a time when the main problem with revived Cornish is teaching something approaching authentic pronunciation, we need this sort of deliberate muddying of the waters like the proverbial hole in the head.

Dhe wir, "Re wrôntyo Duw i dhe goedhe yn edreg, ha dhe azwonn an gwiryonedh", mez ny vynnav tenne ow anadhel.

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Anselm
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Anselm » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:14 am

Onan a'n penngudynnow, yn-sur, lemen mann an huni unyg a bellder. Mes dre vras yth ov unnver genes, pan nag eus gwaytyans mul dhe'n treylyans ma dalghennow yn kolonnow tus. Surnedh y'm beus dell yllyn ni tenna yn-mes anodho an elvennow a vern, mes y fydh Kernewegoryon hedhyw ow synysi an kowsans na dhe hwardhus fest. (Y'n jeveus nebes ahanowgh kov a goloven 'Yn plek an scovarn' war Eythen.) Yth hevel bones hanter kynsa Nick-n-Mick ow krysi a leun golonn nag yw res dhodho marnas hartha warnan, ha war-nug y tallethyn ni oll kewsel herwydh gis kres an hwettegves kanvlydhen. (Dhe'n lyha yma Kernewek dhodho, yn-tihevelyp orth an nessa hanter!) Apert yw dhe weles y vones ow tybi dell yw ev perghennek an yeth, ha'gan bones ni oll an Gernewegoryon neb bagas a fleghes drog usi oth assaya ladra y wariellow.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

Kathlovenn
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Kathlovenn » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:09 am

Evertype wrote:"Avoyd drog-whansow an yowynkneth, mès gwra sewya ewnder, fëdh, kerensa ha cres, warbarth gans oll an re-na a vo ow kelwel gans colon lân wàr an Arlùth. Gwra avoydya contraversytas gocky ha dylês. Te a wor contraversytas dhe dhenethy strif. Ny dal dhe servont vëth a’n Arlùth bos strîvor. Y gonversacyon a dal bos hegar tro ha pùbonen. Ev a res bos descador dâ hag a berthyans hir. Y tal dhodho desky gans clorder an re-na, nag yw unver ganso. Re wrauntyo Duw martesen y dhe godha in edrek, ha dhe aswon an gwiryoneth."
esesta yn neb le ogas dhe Dhamascus a-gynsow?

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Anselm
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Anselm » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:25 pm

Lagas tarow!
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Evertype
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Evertype » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:42 pm

Oh, Keith. It's going to be shooting fish in a barrel. Talk to you the day after tomorrow.
Last edited by Evertype on Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Marhak
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Marhak » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:41 am

Don't forget to allow for refraction.

pietercharles
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by pietercharles » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:54 am

There's no need.

If the bullet doesn't hit the fish the shockwave kills it anyway, apparently.

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Anselm
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Anselm » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:43 pm

Setha pyskes? Yn-ta y hwodhyen vy bones nessa hanter Nick-n-Mick ytho gorbollek, mes ... gast an ast ...
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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factotum
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by factotum » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:28 am

Gwell vie dofhe morvran rag an ober-na.

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Anselm
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Anselm » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:53 am

A yllyr yn-hwir aga dovhe?
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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factotum
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by factotum » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:36 am

Gwryz yw yn fenowgh yn broyow an Est Pell, mez gans morvryni unn tamm le ez an re kevyz yn Kernow, dell gryzav. I a worr kordenn a-dro dhe gonna an edhen, ma na vo gowllenkyz an puskez woze i dhe voz kechyyz.

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Evertype
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Evertype » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:19 am

factotum wrote:For example, the sound /o/ (later > /u/ maybe) is written "o" in "a wor" and "dhe godha", but "ù" in "arlùth";
No, because these are pronounced [ə ˈwɔɹ], [ðə ˈgɔðə], [ˈɑɹlʊθ]. Not [ˈɑɹlɔθ].
The sound written "dh" (which is not of course 'traditional') in "dhodho" and "fëdh" is represented by "th" in "arlùth" and "gwiryoneth", but "th" also stands for the unvoiced sound in "vëth" and "warbarth";
The first are pronounced [ˈðɔðɔ], [feːð]~[fiːð]; the others are pronounced [ˈɑɹlʊθ], [ɡwɪrˈjɔnəθ], [veːθ]~[viːθ], [wɑɹˈbɑɹθ].
the letter "e" represents /I/ in "te" and "descador",
No, these are [teː] and [dɛsˈkædəɹ]. /e/ is [eː] long and [ɛ] short.
/E/ in "ev" and "edrek",
No, because there is no phoneme /ɛ/ distinct from a phoneme /e/. These are [eːv] and [ˈɛdɹək].
and /i/ *and* /Ej/ in "dhenethy", two values within the same word(!)
This spelling gives [ðɛˈnɛθi]. I don't know where you get *[ðɪˈnɛjθi].
(written in Middle Cornish "dynythy"),
"denethy" is also found.
yet /I/ is spelled "y" in "ny" and "yowynkneth", although "y" can also stand for /i/ in "y dhe godha" 'they fall',
No, because there's no phoneme /ɪ/ distinct from a phoneme /i/. /i/ is [iː] long and [ɪ] short. These words are [niː]~[nəi], [jɔˈwɪŋknəθ], [ˈiː ðə ˈɡɔðə].
although there is no hesitation in using 'unhistoric' "i" for /i/ in "strif" and "hir".
It is true that strif is not a spelling found in the corpus (stryf(f) is), though both hir and hyr are found. But, ultimately because of practice encouraged by the rules of KK orthography, in the SWF i is used for [iː] and y for [ɪ] in stressed monosyllables (apart from those words which participate in the bys/bes [biːz]~[beːz] alternation). This we took over into KS, so strif [stɹiːf] and hir [hiːɹ] are normal, as stryf and hyr would be [stɹɪf] and [hɪɹ].
Not only is the modern reader presented with many of the shortcomings of the traditional Middle Cornish texts,
We know that you consider features of traditional orthography to be "shortcomings". We don't agree with you.
devices introduced to remove these problems, such as the use of "i", "dh", "oe" are either ignored or used in some sort of ideosyncratic apparently random fashion, plus the unpopular and unnecessary diacritics.
Orthographic choices in KS are neither "idiosyncratic" nor "random". Diacritics are used for specific reasons. The fact that the SWF cannot distinguish between /u/ and /y/ reliably is a problem. The fact that the SWF cannot distinguish between monosyllables with short /i/ and words which alternate between long /i/ and long /e/ is a problem.
At a time when the main problem with revived Cornish is teaching something approaching authentic pronunciation, we need this sort of deliberate muddying of the waters like the proverbial hole in the head.
KS does, in fact, represent an authentic pronunciation. The phonology proposed by Ken George in the 1980s is not used by Revivalists, despite your claims to the contrary.

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Anselm
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Anselm » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:58 pm

factotum wrote:Gwryz yw yn fenowgh yn broyow an Est Pell, mez gans morvryni unn tamm le ez an re kevyz yn Kernow, dell gryzav. I a worr kordenn a-dro dhe gonna an edhen, ma na vo gowllenkyz an puskez woze i dhe voz kechyyz.
Tybyans pur gonnyk! Res bones an morvrini na kreatures marthys.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

Kathlovenn
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Kathlovenn » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:29 pm

pietercharles wrote:There's no need.

If the bullet doesn't hit the fish the shockwave kills it anyway, apparently.
I think you would at least need to get the shot in the barrel, however.

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