BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

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Evertype
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BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Evertype » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:25 am

An interview with Nicholas Williams and Ray Chubb about An Beybel Sans can be found at http://www.evertype.com/books/bbc-cornw ... 111002.mp3 or accessed from the Beybel Sans webpage.

Kathlovenn
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Kathlovenn » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:50 am

Some questions:

Does Cornish need a "literary standard"?
Should or will it be the bible?
Should or will it be this bible?

My guess is that the influence the bible has had on English and Welsh is largely down to the fact that for several centuries most people regularly heard it read in church and chapel. Are modern Cornish speakers likely to experience it in the same way?

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Marhak
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Marhak » Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:45 pm

Whyever not? It was read from at the Gorsedh service and, I believe, at St Cleer recently. It's a major milestone in the hstory of Cornish - probably THE milestone. Why doubt it?

carrek
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by carrek » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:01 pm

Because it's not the 16th Century any more. People who believe that this Bible is going to initiate a sea-change in the fortunes of the Cornish language are, quite frankly, living in a fantasy. It's fantastic that it's been done (despite it being part of yet another inter-orthographic competition), as it brings Cornish into further equality with other living, modern languages, but it's not the landmark moment it once could have been. It's 400 years too late for that.

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Marhak
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Marhak » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:12 pm

"Despite it being part of yet another inter-orthographic competition". That can be said about any publication in Cornish over the last 25 years or so, regardless of which orthography was used.

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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by carrek » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:30 pm

This is slightly different, a course book teaching a particular type of Cornish is one thing, a Bible is a whole 'nother. What's the point of having two bibles, both in the same language? If I was in the KK bible project I'd be feeling that my years of work are pretty superfluous now. I'm sure there are some out there who are more determined than ever to complete a KK bible, just to stick it to Nicholas, but there'll be others who are now feeling disheartened with their own project. It's them I feel sorry for. It's something that could have been avoided if everyone had just worked together from the beginning.

Kathlovenn
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Kathlovenn » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:00 pm

I hope the Bible project will be completed before too long. I also think that it would make sense for it to be published in the SWF even though I know the translators have made clear their preference for KK.

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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Anselm » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:18 pm

From what I've seen, it could have some influence, although obviously not as much as it would have in the 1560s, a period whose diction it captures uncannily. No need to worry about having more than one version. German had something like 40 attempts at the Bible before Luther's version, and I've forgotten how many there were in English before Jamie the Saxt set up his committee.
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'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
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Evertype
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Evertype » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:42 pm

Kathlovenn wrote:Some questions:
Does Cornish need a "literary standard"?
Only if it hopes to survive.
Should or will it be the bible?
I don't know. The Bible is a definitive text. It is not used by everyone, but it is used by many on a regular basis.
Should or will it be this bible?
Who can say? It is a definitive translation of a definitive text, written in an orthography which is easily read by readers of UC, UCR, and SWF (I shall not endeavour to speak for KK readers). Readers of RLC may be used to one or more than one of Dick Gendall's orthographies, and seem to have trouble adjusting to any Middle-Cornish orthography, at least without special study.
My guess is that the influence the bible has had on English and Welsh is largely down to the fact that for several centuries most people regularly heard it read in church and chapel. Are modern Cornish speakers likely to experience it in the same way?
Some may, using it in private or public worship. Some will use it to help improve their Cornish. Some will use it as a source for phrase-translation for other works of literature (just as many Biblical phrases are used in English).

Some may not. Some will refuse to buy An Beybel Sans, complaining that they don't care about scripture, or because the book was translated by Nicholas and published by Evertype, or because it isn't in UC, or because it isn't in UCR, or because it isn't in KK, or because it isn't in SWF. (Or because they are disingenuous begrudgers like Mr Saunders, who feigns disdain for most things on foot of a notion that people admire his cleverness in doing so.)

It would be interesting to know what people 50 years from now (far from the ugliness of the past two decades) will say about it. Since it is grounded in the best Cornish—the Cornish of the texts—I suspect it will be admired by all.

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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Evertype » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:46 pm

carrek wrote:Because it's not the 16th Century any more. People who believe that this Bible is going to initiate a sea-change in the fortunes of the Cornish language are, quite frankly, living in a fantasy.
Who do you think believes that?
It's fantastic that it's been done
Thank you for saying so. It was a lot of work.
(despite it being part of yet another inter-orthographic competition),
No more or less than any publication since the mid-1980s.
as it brings Cornish into further equality with other living, modern languages,
And offers the same rich reference source that other languages have.
but it's not the landmark moment it once could have been. It's 400 years too late for that.
It was nevertheless worth doing. I hope you will enjoy its richness.

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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Evertype » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:15 pm

carrek wrote:This is slightly different, a course book teaching a particular type of Cornish is one thing, a Bible is a whole 'nother.
Why? There are two translations of Alice in Cornish, too. They differ greatly from one another (orthography aside).
What's the point of having two bibles, both in the same language?
Cornish doesn't have two bibles. It has one. It also has fragments of another.
If I was in the KK bible project I'd be feeling that my years of work are pretty superfluous now.
I have not seen any of their Old Testament, but I think that Nicholas' review of the unreadableness of the KK New Testament is verifiably fair. I am told by a number of people that almost no one uses the Kesva New Testament in public services because it just doesn't make any sense; they use the UCR New Testament, which does.
I'm sure there are some out there who are more determined than ever to complete a KK bible, just to stick it to Nicholas,
I assure you, Nicholas view is that if someone thinks they can do a better job, they ought to go and do it.
but there'll be others who are now feeling disheartened with their own project. It's them I feel sorry for.
I don't. Bible translations have been going on since Caradar published Mark in 1936. The KK Bible project was evidently founded in 1996. If they can't complete a bible in 15 years, they can't. But it's not the first time. Nicholas' New Testament was published in 2002, two years before the KK New Testament.
It's something that could have been avoided if everyone had just worked together from the beginning.
Nicholas and I are quite reasonable. We put our heads down, do the work, and the result is products which are worthy of the Cornish language. We're quite happy to work with reasonable people whose vision for the Cornish language is not parochial and begrudging. You might notice that despite the nasty things some people say about us, we have not gone away nor given up producing quality materials for the Revival. At the end of the day, we love the Cornish language, and hold it to be more important than petty squabbling. Our view is the long view.

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Anselm
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Anselm » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:16 pm

Kathlovenn wrote:Some questions:

Does Cornish need a "literary standard"?
Yn-sur, kepar ha pub yeth a vri yn-dann howl.

Kathlovenn wrote:Should or will it be the bible?
Y hallsa an Bibel kevri meur, mes mann kemmys hag y'n oesow kyns.

Kathlovenn wrote:Should or will it be this bible?
Yma meur a grevderow y'n huni ma, mes soweth! y fydh an elvennow Sowsnek na ow kul dhe Gernewegoryon hedhyw hwerthin.
Kathlovenn wrote:My guess is that the influence the bible has had on English and Welsh is largely down to the fact that for several centuries most people regularly heard it read in church and chapel.
Gwir an ger a gewsydh, dell grysav.
Kathlovenn wrote:Are modern Cornish speakers likely to experience it in the same way?
Skant ny dybyav - dres eghenn treylyans usi ow kloppya war-lergh kowsans an hwettegves gansvlydhen.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Anselm
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Anselm » Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:24 am

Ott an kudynn war woeles, bones an kowsans fest yn-pell a deythi an yeth arnowydh, ha bones an pris pur boes. Yntra'n dhiw elvenn na, ny gonvedhav fatell yll an treylyans ma gorra nameur a olow war usadow Kernewegoryon agan termyn ni. Y fynn tus am Bibel Kernewek pesya gans aga ober kepar ha kyns, hag orttiwedh y fydh genen dew dreylyans. Pyneyl a gyv an degemmeryans krev a golonn? Y fydh henna dh'y weles.
Anselm

'Against a promontory my ship' Rump L. Stiltz-Kinn

'With regret I feel that unless you have a serious change of heart your presence at the Mennaye on Cornish Pirates match days is no longer desired.'
Rod Coward
CEO
Cornish Pirates

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Evertype
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Re: BBC Cornwall interview about An Beybel Sans

Post by Evertype » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:53 pm

All that needs to be said, Tim, is that you didn't do it. The Kesva didn't do it. The Cowethas didn't do it. After four hundred years, it was Nicholas Williams who did it. Oh, sure, Tim. You can pretend horror at the kind of diction Nicholas uses. You can write nearly incomprehensible Cornish with your Common Cornish spelling and your use of used-by-nobody forms like "bones" for "bos" and "gwruthyl" for "gwil" or "gul". But you're not fooling anyone: you're a sad begrudger jealous of someone else's success. "Oooh," you dissemble, "it remains to be seen whether anyone will like Nicholas' Cornish". "Aaaah", you opine, "I won't spend my own money on the Evertype Beybel." Well, do what you want. We did it. You didn't. Your friends didn't. And 50 years from now, people will know who did the work and who didn't.

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